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Old Jan 9, 2018, 08:13 PM   #61
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Honestly, AMD is OK at the moment. As long as their cards continue to sell as a result of cryptocurrency...

As for gaming, marketshare has taken a nose dive because most people can't even find an AMD GPU for the price/performance of an Nvidia counterpart.

This hurts AMD in the software side of things. Badly.

So, AMD needs to make a decision. Large short term gain at the cost of long term stability or Long term stability with a medium short term gain?


As for Vega just "sampling"... Yep. But Global Foundries has been doing high risk production of 7nm silicon since July of 2017. We are now entering "Risk Mass Production" where they are ramping up to mass production with moderate yields. So, I expect that Vega 7nm will see a pro card like the Frontier Edition come out in early-mid 4Q 2018.

If 7nm yields were higher, I'd say sooner, so if GloFo can get yields to rapidly improve.. 7nm Vega gaming cards might see the light of day 2H 2018. If not, they may as well not release a 7nm Vega card and just hold till Navi.
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Old Jan 9, 2018, 08:30 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Flyordie View Post
Honestly, AMD is OK at the moment. As long as their cards continue to sell as a result of cryptocurrency...

As for gaming, marketshare has taken a nose dive because most people can't even find an AMD GPU for the price/performance of an Nvidia counterpart.

This hurts AMD in the software side of things. Badly.

So, AMD needs to make a decision. Large short term gain at the cost of long term stability or Long term stability with a medium short term gain?


As for Vega just "sampling"... Yep. But Global Foundries has been doing high risk production of 7nm silicon since July of 2017. We are now entering "Risk Mass Production" where they are ramping up to mass production with moderate yields. So, I expect that Vega 7nm will see a pro card like the Frontier Edition come out in early-mid 4Q 2018.

If 7nm yields were higher, I'd say sooner, so if GloFo can get yields to rapidly improve.. 7nm Vega gaming cards might see the light of day 2H 2018. If not, they may as well not release a 7nm Vega card and just hold till Navi.
They aren't selling because of Pyramid Currency. AMD's yields are low and the little supply that does come out isn't enough to stock shelves with.

EDIT:

Let me rephrase that, its not that yields are low its that the GPU and HBM2 can not be supplie in proper quantity.
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Old Jan 9, 2018, 08:40 PM   #63
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If that is the case in real world conditions where a single GTX1080 TI can't quite handle 4K, said user that already has one will have to sell it and hope that a Volta high end card finally pulls it off....still means spending more money even though high end Pascal is at most a year old if users bought one as soon as it was announced in January of last year.


Only other option is getting another TI, and go multi GPU as well.....Same boat as Vega in real world terms.
for now I can get by with one 1080 ti strix and fury x cfx

but I will most likely replace my fury x cfx with a Volta 1180 ti strix and keep the 1080 ti in my other system

unless AMD gets back on gaming gpu's and or pulls their head out
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Old Jan 9, 2018, 08:52 PM   #64
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It all comes down to money for AMD. They can't focus on both GPU and CPU markets at the same time. And right now they are killing it in the CPU market. So they will continue to put money and focus on that portion.

And I wouldn't keep my hopes up for Navi, with Raj's quick departure after the Vega disaster it was a clear indication that things weren't right in AMD's GPU department. Navi was supposed to be Raj's miracle child, and he isn't even there to see it through so you know what that means.

I would look at maybe 2020 for AMD to start competing again in the GPU Market. They fill the coffers with Ryzen success and then decide maybe its time to start looking at the GPU market.

That is, if they don't possibly sell off the GPU market. With the partnership with Intel we might see them aquire AMD/ATI GPU side of things. It might be in AMD's best interest to sell if off and just focus solely on the CPU market.
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Old Jan 10, 2018, 12:18 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Hapatingjaky View Post
It all comes down to money for AMD. They can't focus on both GPU and CPU markets at the same time. And right now they are killing it in the CPU market. So they will continue to put money and focus on that portion.

And I wouldn't keep my hopes up for Navi, with Raj's quick departure after the Vega disaster it was a clear indication that things weren't right in AMD's GPU department. Navi was supposed to be Raj's miracle child, and he isn't even there to see it through so you know what that means.

I would look at maybe 2020 for AMD to start competing again in the GPU Market. They fill the coffers with Ryzen success and then decide maybe its time to start looking at the GPU market.

That is, if they don't possibly sell off the GPU market. With the partnership with Intel we might see them aquire AMD/ATI GPU side of things. It might be in AMD's best interest to sell if off and just focus solely on the CPU market.
not going to happen .

sure give the gaming consoles to intel and kill their own apu's for laptops at the same time

and they are killing it in the CPU market and intel just lost the load in the cpu market with meltdown & spectre

they will make the money selling epyc's and threadripper's and ryzen's to be back in it with gpu's also next year
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Old Jan 10, 2018, 06:56 AM   #66
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not going to happen .

sure give the gaming consoles to intel and kill their own apu's for laptops at the same time

and they are killing it in the CPU market and intel just lost the load in the cpu market with meltdown & spectre

they will make the money selling epyc's and threadripper's and ryzen's to be back in it with gpu's also next year
That's not happening next year.

This year will be the Vega refresh ( maybe ) that might get close to the 1080ti if not tie it. By then Volta gaming will hit and it will be a mute point.

Navi is now slated for 2019 and it won't be anything special.

That's why 2020 is the earliest time frame for anything that AMD might have coming down the pipe that competes, and that's if the Zen Train is starting to slow down which I doubt because Zen3 is in that timeframe as well.
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Old Jan 10, 2018, 09:26 AM   #67
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That's not happening next year.

This year will be the Vega refresh ( maybe ) that might get close to the 1080ti if not tie it. By then Volta gaming will hit and it will be a mute point.

Navi is now slated for 2019 and it won't be anything special.

That's why 2020 is the earliest time frame for anything that AMD might have coming down the pipe that competes, and that's if the Zen Train is starting to slow down which I doubt because Zen3 is in that timeframe as well.
The CPU division does not support he GPU division, nor is it vice versa, both divisions are self sustaining and work within their own budgets. With Zen side taking off, it will just mean faster, more AMD CPU technology. It does not mean that the GPU side will suffer due to it. In fact, it could also mean that AMD may put some of the profits of zen towards the GPU side to speed up advancements, Not slow it down, or limit it's advancements. But in the end, each division is self sustaining, neither relies on the other to move forward.

As for Navi, It could still be a late 2018 release date, there is not firm indication that it has fully been pushed to 2019. The information out there, including the road map does not make it clear, and various articles go back and forth about it, all depending on which one you read.
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Old Jan 10, 2018, 11:36 AM   #68
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The CPU division does not support he GPU division, nor is it vice versa, both divisions are self sustaining and work within their own budgets. With Zen side taking off, it will just mean faster, more AMD CPU technology. It does not mean that the GPU side will suffer due to it. In fact, it could also mean that AMD may put some of the profits of zen towards the GPU side to speed up advancements, Not slow it down, or limit it's advancements. But in the end, each division is self sustaining, neither relies on the other to move forward.

As for Navi, It could still be a late 2018 release date, there is not firm indication that it has fully been pushed to 2019. The information out there, including the road map does not make it clear, and various articles go back and forth about it, all depending on which one you read.


I think what may happen is that we all know how AMD has been in survival mode for several years, barely making any profits by making money where they could, including consoles and they do have the underlying technology to be extremely competitive if the finances allow it, and with 2017 being the first year they've really made far more money that usual and it hasn't even been a full year since Ryzen was released yet, so it may only represent the start of hopefully getting back to a place they were 10+ years before, being a pain in ass towards intel with their Athlon and Athlon X2 simply being better than any pentium CPU, or towards Nvidia with their Radeon 9700 /9800 pro's just killing it against anything Nvidia had ( NV30 /NV35 ).



That's the AMD we want to see come back, but it might take another 2+ years of really solid profits that they haven't had in a long time, and they seem to have the roadmap on the CPU side of the challenge with 12 nm and eventual 7nm updates, with the rumor that Global's 7nm is just as good as Intel's 10nm process, for which Intel is over a year late.....Their current 14nm process was first released in 2014 and they've never been on the same process for 4 years now....It's what allows them to have the highest performing products by having the edge on the fab process over all others.....That might not be the case much longer and it's one hell of an opportunity for AMD.



There's still a lot of money to be made on the GPU side of the coin, and once the finances are much more solid, the same fab process is used on their GPU's as they are for CPU's including the 7nm one, all bets are off but as of right now, they're still in the beginning of getting the process of regrowth going....2017 was just the start.
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Old Jan 10, 2018, 12:11 PM   #69
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I for one would like to see another leap in GPU performance soon, for VR headsets. Vive announcing a 78% increase in pixels for the new model means maintaining 90+ fps will be even more difficult than it already is, and soon.
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Old Jan 10, 2018, 01:20 PM   #70
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There'll be 7nm Vega with unlocked FP64 compute or something (also called Vega 20?) but it is for AI only. So this means we'll have to wait till Navi in 2019.
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Old Jan 10, 2018, 06:11 PM   #71
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There'll be 7nm Vega with unlocked FP64 compute or something (also called Vega 20?) but it is for AI only. So this means we'll have to wait till Navi in 2019.

And Nvidia can hold off on any new Volta based hardware release until a Vega refresh made at 12 nm is out, and only if said refresh gets too close to the current GTX 1080 TI......Until then, they'll keep the price and high profit margins of Pascal going for as long as possible.


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Old Jan 10, 2018, 09:18 PM   #72
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I think what may happen is that we all know how AMD has been in survival mode for several years, barely making any profits by making money where they could, including consoles and they do have the underlying technology to be extremely competitive if the finances allow it, and with 2017 being the first year they've really made far more money that usual and it hasn't even been a full year since Ryzen was released yet, so it may only represent the start of hopefully getting back to a place they were 10+ years before, being a pain in ass towards intel with their Athlon and Athlon X2 simply being better than any pentium CPU, or towards Nvidia with their Radeon 9700 /9800 pro's just killing it against anything Nvidia had ( NV30 /NV35 ).



That's the AMD we want to see come back, but it might take another 2+ years of really solid profits that they haven't had in a long time, and they seem to have the roadmap on the CPU side of the challenge with 12 nm and eventual 7nm updates, with the rumor that Global's 7nm is just as good as Intel's 10nm process, for which Intel is over a year late.....Their current 14nm process was first released in 2014 and they've never been on the same process for 4 years now....It's what allows them to have the highest performing products by having the edge on the fab process over all others.....That might not be the case much longer and it's one hell of an opportunity for AMD.



There's still a lot of money to be made on the GPU side of the coin, and once the finances are much more solid, the same fab process is used on their GPU's as they are for CPU's including the 7nm one, all bets are off but as of right now, they're still in the beginning of getting the process of regrowth going....2017 was just the start.
No disagreement, but to clarify, the 9700 pro and 9800 where NEVER an AMD product, it was strictly an ATI product that was launched in 2002, 4 years before they where bought by AMD... But I get your point and agree.

I actually I think perfecting the 7nm process is what is holding them back, more so than their budget.
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 04:17 AM   #73
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 09:12 AM   #74
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#1 ATi fanboi here. Nv second. AMD a distant 3rd.
What, no Matrox fan at all? We used to had Matrox GPU as third GPU competitor years ago.
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 10:44 AM   #75
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No disagreement, but to clarify, the 9700 pro and 9800 where NEVER an AMD product, it was strictly an ATI product that was launched in 2002, 4 years before they where bought by AMD... But I get your point and agree.

I actually I think perfecting the 7nm process is what is holding them back, more so than their budget.


That was just the first examples that popped up into my mind, but there were also the 5870 and 7970 cards where at least the latter was released 6 + months before Nvidia had their answer for it in the GTX480 which used a lot of power, ran hot and had hardware disabled and the GTX580 was released 6 months later with all those issues corrected.....They were the first Fermi based cards......This was around 2012 ~ 2013 if memory serves......More to the point, AMD had ownership of ATI for several years by that time, and were obviously struggling financially on the CPU side but i'm not sure if they had sold off the factories in Austin and Germany by then, of if it was later that it happened.



Either way, they've been bleeding both cash and assets for years, always being in survival mode, so 2017 has been an awesome year for them by recovering a lot of lost ground with a single generation of products on both the CPU side and GPU side at the same time......Expecting them to knock the competition out with this first wave after years of not being there ( especially CPU's ) was unrealistic to put it mildly, but they do have a solid base to work off of for sure.


The 2nd Generation Zen at 12nm is sampling already and will launch in April, and even if there's absolutely no improvement in IPC at all, the smaller process allows them to clock it higher for the same power budget, so the performance gap towards Intel further shrinks, never mind all this mess with meltdown and spectre.....It's bound to help AMD in the database side of things, since I/O performance is everything there....Then there's thread ripper version 2.0 using those same 12nm dies, and will AMD really nail Intel by releasing versions with even more cores?, perhaps a 24 core / 48 thread version by enabling a 3rd die in the package, blowing away the 2000$ 18 core / 36 thread 7980XE in multi threaded performance?......I'd happily pay 1500$ for one, since it would be a stupid amount of performance for the money, and AMD would still make a lot of profit for each sold.



Now there's the likely prospect of a 12nm version of Vega, and the same might also apply as with the second generation Ryzen......Will it use less power?, also have enhancements and perhaps with the power savings, be able to clock higher since it's easier to cool down?.....Who knows, but the potential is there for sure with the updated process.

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Old Jan 11, 2018, 05:18 PM   #76
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Samsung Unleashes Fastest Ever HBM2 ‘Aquabolt’ Capable Of Achieving 2.4 Gbps On 1.2v, Increasing Performance Per Watt By 50%
https://wccftech.com/samsung-hbm2-aquabolt-2-4-gbps/


vega 2 or navi ?
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 06:17 PM   #77
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So 32gb HBM2. That's never gonna happen on a consumer card but most probably a workstation card where overall cost isn't the main issue.
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 07:54 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by LordHawkwind View Post
So 32gb HBM2. That's never gonna happen on a consumer card but most probably a workstation card where overall cost isn't the main issue.
I think that is 32gb with 4 stacks like fury x

but 2 stacks like vega at 16gb is doable for a high end consumer card with 4k 120hz and 8k 60hz monitors hitting this year
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Old Jan 13, 2018, 12:04 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by bill dennison View Post
I think that is 32gb with 4 stacks like fury x

but 2 stacks like vega at 16gb is doable for a high end consumer card with 4k 120hz and 8k 60hz monitors hitting this year


4k at 120Hz will already be demanding as hell for any single video card coming out this year or even next year......It's a lot of work for a single GPU to handle, even if it's name is volta.


8K at 60 Hz is twice as demanding as 4K 120 Hz, so we'll be in the next decade before a single card handles that....Both cases are strictly for multi GPU setups for the next couple of years.
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Old Jan 13, 2018, 01:46 AM   #80
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Oh hey Shadow... Got my HBM2 to 1100. lol. 1115 is possible bumping voltage up to .960V

How is your HBM2 clocking? GCN/Vega is severely bandwidth limited.

Doing some tests on what helps more.. core clock or HBM2 clocks.

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/details/n643b
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Old Jan 13, 2018, 12:22 PM   #81
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Oh hey Shadow... Got my HBM2 to 1100. lol. 1115 is possible bumping voltage up to .960V

How is your HBM2 clocking? GCN/Vega is severely bandwidth limited.

Doing some tests on what helps more.. core clock or HBM2 clocks.

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/details/n643b
Very nice! I'd like to see refresh Vega with updated Samsung HBM2 which is they already announced HBM2 @ 2.4Gbps @ 1.2v...and maybe it is possible to undervolt lower than 1.2v?
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Old Jan 13, 2018, 01:21 PM   #82
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Oh hey Shadow... Got my HBM2 to 1100. lol. 1115 is possible bumping voltage up to .960V

How is your HBM2 clocking? GCN/Vega is severely bandwidth limited.

Doing some tests on what helps more.. core clock or HBM2 clocks.

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/details/n643b


Honestly, I just left the cards running in turbo mode since they were installed nearly 4 months ago, and they haven't had as much as a hiccup since then, as the cores are always at 1750 Mhz since they stay at about 54~55*C under load during all that time.


So with that much room to maneuver, i suppose i could explore the outer limits in both core clocks and memory speeds, but having a pair of them working together is anything but slow by any standard to begin with, so why mess with a good thing....


Any gains beyond that likely add another 5~10% and it's nice for benchmark numbers, but doesn't really make a huge difference in real world use when playing games... :P


This however does have my attention:


http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/asr...-cooling).html



Slap multiple SSD's into the card and make them run on their own dedicated X16 PCI-e interface....Seems that read speeds exceed the 27 GB/sec mark as shown here on the end of the video, this one using eight Samsung 960 pro's on 2 cards:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=9CoAyjzJWfw


And here I am with a pair of those X-16 PCI-e slots completely open since the old video cards were removed and the Vega's installed, and owning an AMD platform that has 60 PCI-e lanes to play with coming off that CPU socket, and AMD released raid drivers to support this a couple of months ago for free ( unlike intel and their Vroc adapter as indicated in the video ), so with the big read / write speed gains in mind and screw the cost, it is tempting as hell......Makes me feel like a kid in a candy store to be quite honest.


It's stuff like this that makes me believe AMD isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and we will see more high end GPU power this year, in either a second generation Vega at 12nm or Navi but i'll only update the GPU's when there really is something twice as fast as they are out there.....I want gains I can feel when playing the actual game, not primarily higher synthetic benchmark numbers.
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Old Jan 13, 2018, 05:42 PM   #83
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Shadow, at 1750.. go to manual voltage control. Cap it at 1.175V and see if they are stable at that. You might get your temps down to below 50C and save over 100W and increase the longevity of your cards.
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Old Jan 13, 2018, 06:09 PM   #84
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Shadow, at 1750.. go to manual voltage control. Cap it at 1.175V and see if they are stable at that. You might get your temps down to below 50C and save over 100W and increase the longevity of your cards.

The real test for temperatures under load will only come this summer, as we all know the cards were only released in September (ish) in any sort of quantity, so that's already fairly mild weather in my neck of the woods and not nearly as hot as it can get, even if i have A/C in the house.


As for the voltage tweak, i do appreciate it but also keep in mind that AMD aren't interested in having the voltage any higher than it needs to be on the chip, if for no other reason that they still have to offer a warranty on the cards and don't want a massive amount of returns, and also have to be absolutely sure it'll be stable running anything that's thrown at them.....It is a situation that is tricky to adjust, with little wiggle room.


Besides, the pair of 1200 watt PSU's already have it pretty easy as it is, no longer having to drive 4 cards.....I'm not even at the halfway mark under load, barely exceeding 500 watts on each power supply....
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Old Jan 13, 2018, 06:27 PM   #85
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I'd definitely doing undervolting to my Fury if I want to run mining.
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Old Jan 14, 2018, 01:17 PM   #86
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I'd definitely doing undervolting to my Fury if I want to run mining.

Speaking of power, how's this from EVGA?:


https://techreport.com/news/33113/ev...eyboard-at-ces


2200 watt PSU, which to even hit that power output without tripping the breaker in the house, absolutely needs a 220 volt outlet which that standard is only used in parts of the world, but definitely not the US, canada or japan and is used mostly in Europe.


More to the point, was this made for those building coin mining setups, or is it a sign that future hardware power usage is going up?....We do have CPU's that are hitting 180 watt TDP's because of the sheer amount of cores onboard, and video cards ( insert Vega here... :P ), that can draw 375 watts.
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Old Jan 14, 2018, 02:23 PM   #87
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Speaking of power, how's this from EVGA?:


https://techreport.com/news/33113/ev...eyboard-at-ces


2200 watt PSU, which to even hit that power output without tripping the breaker in the house, absolutely needs a 220 volt outlet which that standard is only used in parts of the world, but definitely not the US, canada or japan and is used mostly in Europe.


More to the point, was this made for those building coin mining setups, or is it a sign that future hardware power usage is going up?....We do have CPU's that are hitting 180 watt TDP's because of the sheer amount of cores onboard, and video cards ( insert Vega here... :P ), that can draw 375 watts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r93A4SJts0&t=12s With 8x RX Vega 64. It's just under 1500W with UV. Hashrate is pretty insane for just single mobo connected to 8 RX Vega 64 with a low end CPU (not really need a powerful CPU to handle 8x RX Vega for any cryptocurrency).
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Old Jan 14, 2018, 05:18 PM   #88
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r93A4SJts0&t=12s With 8x RX Vega 64. It's just under 1500W with UV. Hashrate is pretty insane for just single mobo connected to 8 RX Vega 64 with a low end CPU (not really need a powerful CPU to handle 8x RX Vega for any cryptocurrency).


All those Vega's have got to be going somewhere after all.....


I also heard that one of the main reasons for Vega's popularity when it comes to mining is that the HBM 2.0 memory is awesome for certain mining programs where they are very much memory latency bound.....Seems HBM really kills GDDR5x in a big way on that front.
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Old Jan 14, 2018, 07:46 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by shadow001 View Post
Speaking of power, how's this from EVGA?:


https://techreport.com/news/33113/ev...eyboard-at-ces


2200 watt PSU, which to even hit that power output without tripping the breaker in the house, absolutely needs a 220 volt outlet which that standard is only used in parts of the world, but definitely not the US, canada or japan and is used mostly in Europe.


More to the point, was this made for those building coin mining setups, or is it a sign that future hardware power usage is going up?....We do have CPU's that are hitting 180 watt TDP's because of the sheer amount of cores onboard, and video cards ( insert Vega here... :P ), that can draw 375 watts.
It depends on what amp they are using in the breaker. The typical how will have a 15amp breaker, which can only pull 1800 watts of power. But you can also get 20amp breaker which will allow for 2400 watts to be pulled.

You can't just toss a 20amp switch though into the breaker as your homes wiring might not be up to the task of pulling that power. Depends on how old the home is or if the electrical has been re-done.
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Old Jan 14, 2018, 09:22 PM   #90
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It depends on what amp they are using in the breaker. The typical how will have a 15amp breaker, which can only pull 1800 watts of power. But you can also get 20amp breaker which will allow for 2400 watts to be pulled.

You can't just toss a 20amp switch though into the breaker as your homes wiring might not be up to the task of pulling that power. Depends on how old the home is or if the electrical has been re-done.
I ran two 10ga romex wires and two 20 amd breakers to my office when I started running a duel case system
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