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Old Jul 1, 2002, 11:24 AM   #1
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Xspringe
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Default from anandtechs' ut2003 comparision

"The Ti 4200 doesn't do bad at all for a $199 card, holding tightly onto third and fourth place. The Radeon 8500 is a good distance away from the GeForce4s but ATI has no reason to worry, R300 will put everything on this chart to shame."

HMM
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Old Jul 1, 2002, 11:37 AM   #2
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8500 Medium detail settings, 1024 x 768 107 fps, not bad for a $149 US and $239 Canadian.
There is something funny going on with high detail settings though, my hunch is specific codepath optimizations for Nvidia hardware as that is what UT 2003 was being developed on, a Geforce 3.


I will be running a R300 anyways
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Old Jul 1, 2002, 11:45 AM   #3
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Anand's statements sometimes seem at odds with each other.
On one hand he states "...R300 will put everything on this chart to shame".
He then says "...will be a formidable opponent to the GeForce4 Ti 4600".
Well, if it's going to do the former, then how is the latter possible?
"Put to shame" implies that it will entirely doninate, while "formidable opponent" implies that there will actually be a battle.
Oh well, I wish they would hurry up and announce the R300, all this waiting frankly sucks.

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Old Jul 1, 2002, 11:49 AM   #4
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John Carmack already stated a highly overclocked Geforce 4 couldn't beat a Beta downclocked R300 with beta drivers, I think that speaks mountains for the performance of a final revision R300 running 700 Mhz (350 DDR) Ram.
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Old Jul 1, 2002, 11:50 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by LLB
Anand's statements sometimes seem at odds with each other.
On one hand he states "...R300 will put everything on this chart to shame".
He then says "...will be a formidable opponent to the GeForce4 Ti 4600".
Well, if it's going to do the former, then how is the latter possible?
"Put to shame" implies that it will entirely doninate, while "formidable opponent" implies that there will actually be a battle.
Oh well, I wish they would hurry up and announce the R300, all this waiting frankly sucks.

LLB
Depends on which definition of formidable you want to say he means. I like the second one myself .

for·mi·da·ble Pronunciation Key (fôrm-d-bl, fôr-md-)
adj.
1. Arousing fear, dread, or alarm: the formidable prospect of major surgery.
2. Inspiring awe, admiration, or wonder: “Though a true hero, he was also a thoroughgoing bureaucrat and politician, a formidable combination” (Mario Puzo).
3. Difficult to undertake, surmount, or defeat: a formidable challenge; a formidable opponent.
 
Old Jul 1, 2002, 12:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wino


Depends on which definition of formidable you want to say he means. I like the second one myself .

for·mi·da·ble Pronunciation Key (fôrm-d-bl, fôr-md-)
adj.
1. Arousing fear, dread, or alarm: the formidable prospect of major surgery.
2. Inspiring awe, admiration, or wonder: “Though a true hero, he was also a thoroughgoing bureaucrat and politician, a formidable combination” (Mario Puzo).
3. Difficult to undertake, surmount, or defeat: a formidable challenge; a formidable opponent.
Well, since Anand used the exact phrase "formidable opponent", it's pretty safe to say that definition three applies.

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Old Jul 1, 2002, 02:52 PM   #7
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I am very curious about something...Specifically what specific nVidia optimizations have been put in place by Epic, as far as the D3D renderer is concerned? I tried to think along this line, and for the life of me, I cannot come up with any any one thing the programmers could have done to optimize the renderer for nVidia...or anybody else.

Lastly, you cannot reasonably extrapolate performance data from one title, and then extend it everything else.

IE, logically...

Card A outperforms Card B in Doom3...

Therefore, Card A will outperform Card B in UT2K3/etc. Granted, I would _think_ that Doom III would be a good metric for evaluating hardware capabilities...

Think back to the good ole' days of 3dfx. How many games were still (say, the GF-256 era) being played which, despite the hardware superiority, were still better on older, antiquated 3dfx hardware? It didn't make very much sense that a single Voodoo2 could outperform a GF/GTS in Unreal-engine games, given the huge difference in fill-rate, bandwidth, etc...And yet, it was a very real scenario.
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Old Jul 1, 2002, 06:00 PM   #8
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Type as much as I love UT 2003, and I have the leaked version the graphics are no where near what I saw on the E3 Doom movie. UT 2003 is a DX7 game with a DX8 overlay, and specific code path optimizations are very easily done by what was posted on Beyond3D, that the Register combiners on Nv1X and Nv2X are far more poweful than what Microsoft exposed.
Who is to say the Pixel Shader effects were not done on CG, looking at GDC, Sweeny spoke for Nvidia on game engine design
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Old Jul 1, 2002, 07:53 PM   #9
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Red face LOL!

The biggest LOL is for me: Ti4200 64 megs version beats the 128 megs ver - even in 1600/high!

I think the whole story is 'money for nothing' - benchmarking with a non-public (not controllable), beta software that's producing weird things like my example.

For me this means unreliable, irresponsible benchmark scores.

Doesn't make any sense for me.
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Old Jul 1, 2002, 09:16 PM   #10
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Default Re: LOL!

Quote:
Originally posted by T2k
The biggest LOL is for me: Ti4200 64 megs version beats the 128 megs ver - even in 1600/high!
How is that funny? Of course it's gonna win, the ram on the 64 meg version runs at 250/500, but the ram on the 128 meg version only runs at 222/444. Now if he used AA at 1600x1200, you'd see the 128 meg version kicking the 64 meg's ass.

64MB vs. 128MB - Stock Clock Speeds
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1643&p=3

64MB vs. 128MB - Equivalent Clock Speeds
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1643&p=4

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Old Jul 1, 2002, 09:21 PM   #11
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I think those benchmark results are bogus anyway. Anyone who has the E3 demo, such as myself, knows that DM-Antalus is by no means indicative of in-game performance: it's a long-distance, third-person perspective on a two player deathmatch.

On my system, which is an XP 2000+ oc'd to 2117, 512MB of CAS2 PC2100 and a GF4 Ti 4200 128MB oc'd to 280/560 (maxed out coolbits on the memory!), I get 162fps at 640x480 with visual quality options set to max.

In-game, playing a handful of bots on the same map, it's a different story; it's playable, but in heavy gunplay it dips down to the mid to high 30s at 1024x768. Now, according to Anand, a system such as mine (his testbed is very similar to my machine), a Ti 4400 (which is effectively what I'm using - even faster) does 84(?)fps. In-game, said machine will NOT get anywhere NEAR this. According to a fraps log, my average through a heated deathmatch on DM-Antalus was ~50 fps with a low of 26 and a high of 130 or so.

I certainly hope Sweenie has made some good headway in terms of performance optimizations (I know in his last update he said they were coming along nicely - let's hope).
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Old Jul 2, 2002, 05:28 AM   #12
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Default the Bandwidth test is fishy!!!

I just hope its a Driver problem...anyway not bad at all....
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Quote:
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Salvation haven't been so easy.
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Old Jul 2, 2002, 02:11 PM   #13
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The benchmark only shows how biased and single focused Swiney is in the developement of his 3D engine. After this comparison and the 3D Mark benches we can see that the current apps for benchmarkong and especially the unreal engines are trully written for nvidia and nothing else.After seeing the see grass problem in Aquanox on the first Parthelia drivers set and remembering it on the radeon 8500 older drivers I vould conclude that the sharders or another component in the engine was written for nv only and so Ati had to make a woraround and so will matrox have to do the same workaround!

I really hope that Sis, 3DLabs and Ati get trough with OpenGL 2.0 coz if Cg gets adopted all game benchmarks in the future might look like that, becouse the Cg language is written by nvidia for nvidia.

I really dont want to start a flame war in the therad but I dont know why one of these comatitors always has to screw all the others just to make the memagment happy.(this goes for all of these companies)!

they should finally make OGL what its supposed to be by nvidia making there prorietary extensions available as open source code like Ati and 3DLabs did!
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Old Jul 2, 2002, 05:26 PM   #14
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I really don't believe the game is "biased" towards Nvidia. The R8500 beats the GF3 Ti500 on Antalus and runs fast enough on Asbestos (less intensive, so all the cards are cranking our insane FPS...so what if the GF3 is producing a few more when you don't need them?)

In intensive situations the R8500 is matched up to the GF3 Ti500 perfectly. That's where it's supposed to be!!!

On stupid Asbestos it falls behind, but it's still running fast enough. Frankly I'd rather get a better average FPS on an obviously more intensive map like Antalus than 500000000 FPS on a map like Asbestos where all cards run fine. You need to look at the numbers, not just the bar graphs (it'd be nice if the reviewers did more than look at the lines too).

As for the GF4 beating the R8500: WHO CARES??! It's a half a generation ahead! For that matter the GF4 Ti4600 probably beats the Radeon 8500 by a similar amount in 3DMark. There's no mystery here folks.
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Old Jul 2, 2002, 07:20 PM   #15
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Agree Nagorak.

btw. koneill, maybe he is using a newer build!
I am actually sitting with a build, that is VERY close to final (it has everything, and I have not met a single bug yet). I have tried the so called E3 demo too, and I can see performance increasements from that to the "full" version that I have now.
Actually, Anand do say that UT2k3 is optimized more for GF than for Radeon.
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Old Jul 2, 2002, 07:43 PM   #16
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Actually, Christian, I was seeing thinking the same thing, but on further review, I found out I was missing detail textures and was getting some strange shimmering---it all disapeared with the new leaked drivers. The most evident place to witness the difference is in that DM inferno level, the one that looks like Quake 3. Look at the fire on the walls of the cavern.

FPS don't seem as low as what Anand is getting. What were the specs of his machine? How do you enable the fps counter?
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Old Jul 3, 2002, 06:15 AM   #17
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Do you have the same(HUGE) version of UT2K3 as me?
No, don't know how to activate the fps counter.
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Old Jul 3, 2002, 09:27 AM   #18
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enable console (tab)

type;

stat fps

Dont know how to timedemo though. There appears to be 4 demo maps in the build I've seen.
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Old Jul 7, 2002, 04:48 AM   #19
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The high detailed benches seem fishy with the R8500 being beat by all the GF3 cards most of the time, especially on the asbestos map, and also only being a few frames faster than the R7500, and even a couple of times the GF2 Ultra beats the R8500. Yet when reduced to medium detail the R8500, jumps up far past the GF3's, R7500 and GF2ultra. Could it be that when enabling High detail that the game reads that you have a R8500, and so it then enables truform or something, and hence the poorer performance. I think that this might be feasible, what does everyone else think?
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Old Jul 7, 2002, 09:13 AM   #20
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I think it is simply hardware specific optimizations....the Geforce 3 was the design platform Epic used.
Thanks Epic for only supporting 50% of the market
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Old Jul 7, 2002, 10:40 AM   #21
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I would still like to understand how, exactly, they were able to optimize this game/engine for any one chip when the rendering is being handled by DX?

I would fully understand it if we were talking about another Daniel Vogel OpenGL .dll that was, indeed, tuned specifically for nVidia products...

I don't deny the fact that they used nVidia products in developing this game...But what I don't understand is how this would impact other products as well. I also find it somewhat difficult to believe that these guys are dumb enough, given their history, to tune this thing for a specific product. I'm not saying that, in the end, it couldn't/wouldn't happen...But I just don't think they would do it intentionally.

On a sidenote...My old TBird died about 8 weeks ago, and I've been stuck using an old Duron CPU since...I just got my P4 system up and running within the last couple of days, and it's actually quite amazing the difference in this game.

I mean, it's common sense that an old Duron 800 MHz. CPU wouldn't stand a chance next to a P4 clocked in the 2.4 GHz. area...But it was pretty awesome nonetheless.
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Old Jul 7, 2002, 10:52 AM   #22
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Bleh Intel, My Athlon Xp 2100 is doing just fine

Register Combiners for one off the top of my head, possibly UT2003 used CG for pixel shader effects.
I also find it very strange that Aquanox (a Direct X game) used PS 1.1 and ran fine on a Geforce 3 yet the 8500 had texture issues with Pixel Shader effects (remember this is DirectX so the code looks for the same extension on all cards) then the Parhelia also exhibits the same thing on its debut.

So two card companies that support Ps 1.1 and both can't render them properly
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Old Jul 8, 2002, 07:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doomtrooper
So two card companies that support Ps 1.1 and both can't render them properly

apparently that is why Carmack uses Nvidia drivers as his gold standard they actually work...
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Old Jul 8, 2002, 10:22 AM   #24
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Lol, sure kid two companies with a standard DX8 function and neither one were working correct on a game developed on a Geforce 3 and pimped by Nvidia to no end.

Please....
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Old Jul 8, 2002, 11:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doomtrooper
Lol, sure kid...
heh, you seem to be the one acting like a kid...

Carmack himself said why he uses Nvidia cards/drivers to code his games. Because they WORK!!!

If you can't stand the heat get out of the forum... kid.
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Old Jul 8, 2002, 12:12 PM   #26
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I really don't care, we are talking a Frickin BASIC DX8 PS 1.1 call. SO if the game was using standard codepaths then it should work right on all hardware as the extension is the SAME ON ALL DX 8 cards.

BTW newb I've been a member of Rage3D for two years, so if anyone will be leaving it won't be me, I did a search on your posts, yet another Nvidia owner trying to justify his purchase on Rage3D.
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Old Jul 8, 2002, 12:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doomtrooper
I really don't care, we are talking a Frickin BASIC DX8 PS 1.1 call. SO if the game was using standard codepaths then it should work right on all hardware as the extension is the SAME ON ALL DX 8 cards.

BTW newb I've been a member of Rage3D for two years, so if anyone will be leaving it won't be me, I did a search on your posts, yet another Nvidia owner trying to justify his purchase on Rage3D.
I've been here almost as long as you, just under another another handle, so watch who you are calling newbie.

Also, I have no need to justify my purchase of Nvidia boards. They work like they are supposed to. Unlike the ATI boards I've had in the past.

You however, seem to spend an awfull lot of time here and on other forums defending your ATI purchase and spouting the gospel according to ATI.

I come here occasionaly, merely to read what the other side has to offer and to still up the ants a bit .

Yeah ATI promises new advanced features with each and every release. About half of them don't work because of faulty drivers and the other half are never adopted by the people who make games. Probably in part because Nvidia has a good hold of them but also in good part because ATI is notorious for having crappy driver support.

I had hoped that the R300 will be different this time, but I doubt it. I expect the R300 to be no different. Great hardware and nice new features which will either never work correctly or never be adopted by game developers.

I expect you and all the other brainwashed fanATIcs to jump up and buy the R300 the day it is released without a care as to what it offers or if the drivers work right. Then you will all be spouting off about how fast it is and how is owns the GF4 and how it totally Roxors etc...

Then reality will set in you'll be here *****ing just like you all were with the 8500 about hardware bugs, lack of driver releases, problems with new games, and no support for its half-baked non working features which will again not be adopted by games developers.

So please continue with your cycle of ATI lunacy. It is ever so amusing to watch.
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Old Jul 8, 2002, 01:28 PM   #28
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Well I dont know anything about codepaths or PS 1.1 but I am not a believer in coincidences. It doesn seem strange that completely different cards from two different manufacturers both have the same problem.
Most new games are,understandably, developed with Nvidia in mind and so it is conceivable that some graphical problems along with some performance differences may be attributed to this. If the R300 delivers all thats promised with good drivers then this will no doubt change in the future or perhaps after 1 more good product launch.

EDIT:
Saying all that though I really was hoping that I could play UT2K3 above 1024x768 with most options turned on since I only bought the 8500 in FEB and have quite a good proc.
But hell, thats life!
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Old Jul 8, 2002, 04:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Retahita


I've been here almost as long as you, just under another another handle, so watch who you are calling newbie.

Also, I have no need to justify my purchase of Nvidia boards. They work like they are supposed to. Unlike the ATI boards I've had in the past.

You however, seem to spend an awfull lot of time here and on other forums defending your ATI purchase and spouting the gospel according to ATI.

I come here occasionaly, merely to read what the other side has to offer and to still up the ants a bit .

Yeah ATI promises new advanced features with each and every release. About half of them don't work because of faulty drivers and the other half are never adopted by the people who make games. Probably in part because Nvidia has a good hold of them but also in good part because ATI is notorious for having crappy driver support.

I had hoped that the R300 will be different this time, but I doubt it. I expect the R300 to be no different. Great hardware and nice new features which will either never work correctly or never be adopted by game developers.

I expect you and all the other brainwashed fanATIcs to jump up and buy the R300 the day it is released without a care as to what it offers or if the drivers work right. Then you will all be spouting off about how fast it is and how is owns the GF4 and how it totally Roxors etc...

Then reality will set in you'll be here *****ing just like you all were with the 8500 about hardware bugs, lack of driver releases, problems with new games, and no support for its half-baked non working features which will again not be adopted by games developers.

So please continue with your cycle of ATI lunacy. It is ever so amusing to watch.
I own a 8500 troll, it works fine and always has...Yes daily we get told our cards don't work by some Nvidia Newb (I'll call ya newb anytime I like..dig) that states he has been here forver ..yada..yada.
There is no room in this thread for trolls like yourself, go play 3Dmark and leave the 'stupid ATI fans' to play with their drivers

BTW in case you didn't realize this is RAGE3D, I have friends at ATI...I like ATI products so I am a FAN of ATI...what a concept.
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Old Jul 9, 2002, 05:22 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doomtrooper


I own a 8500 troll, it works fine and always has...
ok.. sure.. anything you say.
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