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Old Dec 13, 2019, 06:21 PM   #1
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metroidfox
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Default For Those Of You That Race + Sim

For those of you that try to "sim" race, how do you compensate for lack of butt-feel?


Debated putting this in the PC gaming section, but figure 'Motoring' is more relevant, given the question is more about the differences from real-life.



For example, I've been using F1 2015 * to improve my reactions to the basics of where to look, effective braking, and turning. However I've been finding it incredibly difficult to get the feel of throttle out of a corner. These are things a wheel doesn't seem to account for.


* not a full "sim," but the same fundamental problem should apply to anything
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Old Dec 13, 2019, 07:05 PM   #2
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Without any motion at all, you just kind of get use to it. If the physics of the sim are really good, it kind of fools you a little. But I was never able to compensate for it in any way (PCars, Asetto, RFactor2, GTR2, etc)

A buddy of mine has one of the cheaper motion rigs. Once that was dialed in, it really helps a LOT. Otherwise you're limited to bass transducers to add in vibration for tactile feedback. That definitely helps along with decent physics in the simulation.

Mahjik has more experience in the sims than I do and far more seat time. I'm sure he has some ideas.
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Old Dec 14, 2019, 10:36 AM   #3
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Well, I'll provide some advice and you can decide if it's useful or not...


In general, sim racing will just never have all of the sensations you get inside of a real car. There are some options to increase the sensations you do get, but they are not cheap and most people aren't going to invest that type of money. I would wager you are likely in that camp. Not that I don't think you 'have' the money, it's just that 'those people' are usually asking these types of questions on dedicated sim racing forum.

With that, there are two things you can control and what affects what you 'feel' when sim driving:
  • The gear you use
  • The sim you use

Both of these will play a big roll in what you feel through the FFB. FFB in general, provides false sensations through the gaming wheel. What I mean by false is that those sensations don't come through a real car's wheel. If it did, we would all jump out of cars thinking something was going to break! We use FFB to try to provide what we can't get by sitting in our houses. Some wheels do it better than others. If you are expecting to pay $150 for a wheel/pedal setup and expect to have life-like experiences, that just isn't going to happen.

With that, you never said what gear you were using. Which wheel/pedal setup are you using?

Similarly, the sim you use will have a big roll in how the feel is.. Unfortunately, the one you are trying to use now has some of the less immersive FFB. I don't have that version, but I do have F1 2019 and it's pretty dead as far as FFB goes. There isn't much communication you get from it compared to other titles. If you are looking to improve your real life driving by the use of sims, I would recommend getting Project CARS 2 and/or Assetto Corsa (standard, not Competizione). Both of those have much better FFB than the Codemaster F1 titles, and they also have street cars which will be able to translate better to real life driving.

If you want to look into getting more immersion in sim racing, the following things can be ideas:

* Cockpit/sim rig

Having a setup that emulates sitting in a car really helps with immersion while sim racing. The downside is that they don't look all that attractive in a house and take up a lot of room.

* Tactile devices (shakers)

Getting tactile feedback helps a lot in immersion and feel when sim racing. It's a little easier to add them when using a sim rig but you can add them to office chairs as well.
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Old Dec 14, 2019, 01:51 PM   #4
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I'm using a TS-PC racer + the rest of the Thrustmaster accessories. Wheel-wise, this should be equivalent to the Fanatec belt-driven stuff.

I understand that moving to higher end equipment implies more tinkering. But I also understand that you need to put in more of these hints yourself. I want to limit my expenditure until it is somehow justified, or if this becomes serious enough.

As far as I understand, even the more serious sims like Assetto/iRacing don't have dedicated signals for motion or even brakes. So even if I theoretically had a direct-drive wheel + hydraulic pedals + a shaker + a head clamp, their input signals would be tied to sound, or steering output. Other than maybe direct drive, seems pointless to me at this stage.

In fact, I know I have the same problem in Assetto. Was using worse gear though.

I guess I'm asking for strategies on adding these hints within my existing setup prior to hitting F1, there must be more that I should be able to tune-in. I know a bunch of you race on here, so figured it was worth asking.



As a side note, if various drivers like Lando Norris could get away with a relatively basic setup, there must be more calibration work I'm missing. Unfortunately I don't know any of these people. You guys are my first step.
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Old Dec 14, 2019, 02:00 PM   #5
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The answer to all of this may end up being that I simply need to get better--which is fine. I just want to make sure I'm not missing some of the easier calibration steps.


EDIT: why regular Assetto over Competizione?
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Originally Posted by Koenig39
Okeh zhentlemain, we well commonce spe-cial operashun "Surraindair" at four-dirty. We well sneek pass dair defances wid our whayt flags held hagh!
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Spyre, I told you before! I won't let you have mensechs with metroidfox nor give you the secret address to the admins p0rn server! :drool:
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Last edited by metroidfox : Dec 14, 2019 at 02:06 PM.
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Old Dec 14, 2019, 04:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metroidfox View Post
I'm using a TS-PC racer + the rest of the Thrustmaster accessories. Wheel-wise, this should be equivalent to the Fanatec belt-driven stuff.
The TS-PC racer is a good place to start. In the Thrustmaster Control panel, try starting with these Gain settings:

Overall: 100
Constant: 100
Periodic: 100
Spring: 65
Damper 65

Make sure to enable "By the game" for Auto-Center settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metroidfox View Post
As far as I understand, even the more serious sims like Assetto/iRacing don't have dedicated signals for motion or even brakes. So even if I theoretically had a direct-drive wheel + hydraulic pedals + a shaker + a head clamp, their input signals would be tied to sound, or steering output. Other than maybe direct drive, seems pointless to me at this stage.
This is not the case. Just about every PC sim has a dedicated API to share with external devices. Sim Commander is one of many apps that read these API's for use with external devices (whether that's driving a motion sim, tactile devices, Direct Drive wheel, etc). Here's a quick screenshot which you can see those settings don't come from just "bass":



What you thought was true about 9-10 year ago but the sim racing landscape has changed. I current run two tactile devices on my sim rig. One simulates the front of the car, and one in the rear. Doesn't move the rig, but the vibrations (with the FFB) are enough to get an idea what's happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metroidfox View Post
In fact, I know I have the same problem in Assetto. Was using worse gear though.

I guess I'm asking for strategies on adding these hints within my existing setup prior to hitting F1, there must be more that I should be able to tune-in. I know a bunch of you race on here, so figured it was worth asking.

The answer to all of this may end up being that I simply need to get better--which is fine. I just want to make sure I'm not missing some of the easier calibration steps.
I'm combining all those comments into one quote even though they are from different messages.

The first thing is FOV. If you don't have this right, it will make judging everything hard in sim racing. Here's a video to get started with:



i.e. don't have the Burnout Paradise FOV for sim racing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by metroidfox View Post
As a side note, if various drivers like Lando Norris could get away with a relatively basic setup, there must be more calibration work I'm missing. Unfortunately I don't know any of these people. You guys are my first step.
Keep in mind that Lando spun out driving F1 2019. He doesn't do that when in a real car. That was likely to him being used to having other sensations when driving in real life... To some extent, it's just getting used to "sim racing". You have to use other cues when sim racing since you don't have the "seat of the pants" feeling that we rely on as real life drivers. For example, one cue is how fast the horizon is moving. If the horizon starts moving quicker than it normally does for you in a corner, the rear is likely coming around. You won't hear anything and maybe not feel anything in the wheel but there is a visual cue... That particular visual cue is used in real life as well (I've had it happen where the rear started coming around but I didn't sense it but noticed the horizon moving much faster and I counter-steered to slow the rear). These are all things that happen in a split second, but it just take seat time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metroidfox View Post
EDIT: why regular Assetto over Competizione?
Competizione is GT3 cars only, nothing else. Honestly, it's marginally better than the PC2 GT3 content. Definitely not really enough to warrant an entire game price for the differences. It's more geared to be an eSports title than anything else...
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Old Dec 14, 2019, 04:34 PM   #7
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Old Dec 15, 2019, 11:46 AM   #8
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Making my way through all this. Going to try the wheel settings today. Thanks!
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Old Dec 19, 2019, 12:28 PM   #9
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Making my way through all this. Going to try the wheel settings today. Thanks!
How are you getting along?
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Old Dec 19, 2019, 02:27 PM   #10
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The FoV change was something I had not come across. Decreasing it seemed to help my tendency to spin.


In my search for more stuff, I came across this: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil.../?id=912315488


There is some slightly confusing English there, but the 'dive-bombing' vs. 'bomb diving' in sims vs real life was something I found very helpful too.


The wheel settings you suggested seem to work pretty well. Previously I had set the feedback strength at 90% to avoid clipping, but your settings seem to avoid that too. How did you decide on those suggestions?
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Spyre, I told you before! I won't let you have mensechs with metroidfox nor give you the secret address to the admins p0rn server! :drool:
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Old Dec 19, 2019, 02:31 PM   #11
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As for the Sim Commander stuff. I watched the video. My onboard audio is already technically free, so could be dedicated to a rumble pack, but first I think I need to get used to these kinds of adjustments to see what limitations I hit next.


I suspect it will actually be something like a VR headset first.
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Spyre, I told you before! I won't let you have mensechs with metroidfox nor give you the secret address to the admins p0rn server! :drool:
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Old Dec 19, 2019, 02:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metroidfox View Post
The wheel settings you suggested seem to work pretty well. Previously I had set the feedback strength at 90% to avoid clipping, but your settings seem to avoid that too. How did you decide on those suggestions?
Just some trial and error. I had tried to find settings a while back that made things feel like what I've felt in real cars. They are mainly tuned using Project CARS 2 and The SR3 Radical, Ginetta GT4, Jaguar F-Type and the Audi R8 (road car).
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Old Dec 20, 2019, 09:17 AM   #13
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You will get an actual sense of motion with a VR sim. Like project cars VR.

Won't feel any g forces, but it will feel like you're in a motorized wheelchair. Better than nothing.
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