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Old Apr 7, 2006, 11:55 PM   #1
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 03:57 AM   #2
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The UMD format should have never been invented.

Can we list the Sony formats that have failed over the years?

BetaMAX
Firewire
UMD
Mini-Disk

Is the memory cards they make a failure yet or what?
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 04:48 AM   #3
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Firewire hasnt failed
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 08:06 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy
Firewire hasnt failed
I was about to say the same thing.

In any case, UMD is a good solution as a game disc, but not as a media disc.
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 09:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renocide
The UMD format should have never been invented.

Can we list the Sony formats that have failed over the years?

BetaMAX
Firewire
UMD
Mini-Disk

Is the memory cards they make a failure yet or what?
I hope Blu-Ray gets added to that list, HD-DVD ftw
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 09:32 AM   #6
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^Trust me, it will. Its just not practical IMO. Too expensive for this generation of media.
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 12:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidavi
^Trust me, it will. Its just not practical IMO. Too expensive for this generation of media.
First off, Sony isn't the sole creator of Blue-Ray.

Secondly, its not "too expensive". You look at the relative cost of the current generation of media and say yeah 5 bucks a disk it alot. However, when CD's came out weren't they somthing like 2-3 bucks a disk? I remember buying a pack of 10 disks for like 25 dollars. Keep in mind inflation for the past 10+ years...the disks themselves are not that expensive.

As far as players being alot...thats just somthing that has to go down over time. If I recall correctly, DVD players weren't cheap when they came out either. Not in the price range of $800, but certianly not under $300 for the first few years.



Blue-Ray has a better long term use the HD-DVD. HD-DVD doesn't have enough space for the next 10 years. In looking for a long term solution, spending 30% more at the start is better when you don't need to replace it with another solution 5 years down the road. HD-DVD isn't advanced enough for the "hi-def" age we live in now.

Remember how BIG cd's were back when they came out? I don't even think harddrives were more then 20gb, 600mb on a single disk was ALOT of space. Then DVD's came out....4.7gb?!?! Crazy...that would never be used. Now you see dual layered (9.4gb) and you think thats enough.

HD-DVD is like a 30gb (dual layered) cap. Blue-Ray has a cap of 54gb (even some companies talking about four layers, or 200gb) AND can come in two sizes (obviously the 8cm disk will hold alot less). In the long run, Blue-ray is worth the inital cost.

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Old Apr 8, 2006, 01:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidavi
^Trust me, it will. Its just not practical IMO. Too expensive for this generation of media.
If you're looking at cost, then DVD has both of them beat. Consumers aren't going to switch unless there's a big difference, which HD-DVD isn't.

This isn't betamax vs VHS, we already have an established (and cheap) standard for movies. The new format must be a rather large leap over DVD, otherwise consumers will ignore it. I don't see a marginally better format like HD-DVD taking off anytime soon.
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 02:06 PM   #9
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The fact that he labelled "Mini-Disc" as a "formats that have failed" is in my opinion the one thing that told me not to take him seriously.

And the "^Trust me" part.
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 05:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a little boy
The fact that he labelled "Mini-Disc" as a "formats that have failed" is in my opinion the one thing that told me not to take him seriously.

And the "^Trust me" part.
Well, I never saw Mini-Disc really take off ever.
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 05:43 PM   #11
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What I was trying to point out is that the Minidisc isn't really an out right "format" in that its goal was to solve the problems/demands that faced users in Asia in the age of CDs (size, and trends towards miniturizations...basically the usual Asian mentality to miniturize) and towards that end they were extremely successful. The demands of the N.American market was very different and by the time they made a serious marketting attempt elsewhere, it was more of an attempt to milk the cash cow even more.
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 07:41 PM   #12
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DVD would be fine evenfor high def if they took off all the extra [email protected] they put on there. the games, previews, etc etc. even spanning discs are cheaper then the new stuff. i don't see people changeing soon. If they want people to switch there going to have to come out with players that support both DVD and a high def solution so people can upgrade without changeing there whole library. HD-DVD is from what I have read and heard the most compatible with DVD's.
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 07:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a little boy
What I was trying to point out is that the Minidisc isn't really an out right "format" in that its goal was to solve the problems/demands that faced users in Asia in the age of CDs (size, and trends towards miniturizations...basically the usual Asian mentality to miniturize) and towards that end they were extremely successful. The demands of the N.American market was very different and by the time they made a serious marketting attempt elsewhere, it was more of an attempt to milk the cash cow even more.
The way I remember it was that it was released as a device that could record digital media prior to CD-RW being released later.



I if you view it as "extermely successful" and it only had success in certain asian markets then how would you describe something like the success of the compact disk? SLAM BAMB KABOO BOOM successful?

Edit: HAHA Go check out this link. Scroll down to the 1990s section and look at the astrick next to the MiniDisk entry. Then scroll up to the top of the list where it says "A * denotes a proprietary format."

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Old Apr 8, 2006, 09:40 PM   #14
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Your probably remember it as such because you are not from Asia.

Seeing as how Wiki is so reliable : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc
Quote:
Along with Philips and Matsushita' Digital Compact Cassette (DCC) system, the MiniDisc was targeted as a replacement for analogue cassette tapes
In either case for those of us who lived in Japan/Asia, we knew it not as a new "format" in the likes of CD/VHS, but as a solution to the demands/trends of the market audience. From the beginning, the aspirations were not high - it was a simple product that was not even of the digital age (songs were recorded like tapes). In meeting its original purpose (the Asian market) it was very very successful (pretty much what I stated in my original post but rephrased just for you) and even today many people in Asia use MDs.

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Old Apr 8, 2006, 10:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a little boy
Your probably remember it as such because you are not from Asia.

Seeing as how Wiki is so reliable : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc

In either case for those of us who lived in Japan/Asia, we knew it not as a new "format" in the likes of CD/VHS, but as a solution to the demands/trends of the market audience. From the beginning, the aspirations were not high - it was a simple product that was not even of the digital age (songs were recorded like tapes). In meeting its original purpose (the Asian market) it was very very successful (pretty much what I stated in my original post but rephrased just for you) and even today many people in Asia use MDs.
You left out the most important part of that sentence..

Quote:
Along with Philips and Matsushita' Digital Compact Cassette (DCC) system, the MiniDisc was targeted as a replacement for analogue cassette tapes as the recording system for Hi-Fi equipment but, as a consumer format, MiniDisc has met with only limited success, though it has enjoyed a loyal niche following in some circles.
I remember as such because thats exactly what it was. A digital recording format that a had limited success. Plastation 2 has been extremely successful. The MiniDisc format has been a failure. Just as I said(but reworded just for you).

Sony headquarters is IN Asia right? They seem to view it as a "format". Maybe you should go across town, knock on their door, and tell them that people living in your personal Asia view it differently.

You don't consider 1992 to be a part of the digital age?

Imagine that. Sony releasing a product that they didn't really invision being a worldwide sucess. Sure dosen't sound like Sony.
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 10:15 PM   #16
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Minidisc >>> CDs. battery life, recording, sound quality and size. Not to mention those things are super durable. The ATRAC format was superior to the CDA format.

Too bad the mp3 player has killed off mini disc for all cept for people who use it to record.

But I'll agree, it never really took off. I have to attribute that to the fact that most people had to record onto the MD before playing it, (commercially available MDs didn't take off here) and that they cost a hell of alot more than CD players. And until the NetMD you couldn't record faster than real time. Or properly from a PC.

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Old Apr 8, 2006, 10:21 PM   #17
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Old Apr 8, 2006, 10:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renocide
I remember as such because thats exactly what it was. A digital recording format that a had limited success. Plastation 2 has been extremely successful. The MiniDisc format has been a failure. Just as I said(but reworded just for you).

Imagine that. Sony releasing a product that they didn't really invision being a worldwide sucess. Sure dosen't sound like Sony.
Thats the problem I was pointing out (once again). It just was not meant to be a worldwide success. The original purpose of it was to alleviate the issues and demands of the Asian market (again), namely battery life and size, on audio products. It was introduced much later on to the rest of the world and even then it was not marketed as something fundamentally new, nor was it even in the same league as the CD or DVD formats in terms of marketing, research, funding, support, nor did it have a consortium to rectify its standards.

In effect, your comparison of this product that you choose to view as a "format" with Blu-Ray is just not justified because the latter is being made for multiple purposes and designed / rectified by many entities. To draw an example, its much the same way as one wouldn't call UMD a failed format - it is just a product that happened to have other uses (and continues to serve its purpose for many people like the minidisc) apart from playing games. Some other arguments can also be used for your labelling of Firewire as a failed format.
Quote:
You don't consider 1992 to be a part of the digital age?
I said the MiniDisc system originally was not digital. This is because recording one required a person to actually connect it to a source and actually play the CD/song from start to finish in real time.

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Old Apr 9, 2006, 12:04 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a little boy
Thats the problem I was pointing out (once again). It just was not meant to be a worldwide success. The original purpose of it was to alleviate the issues and demands of the Asian market (again), namely battery life and size, on audio products. It was introduced much later on to the rest of the world and even then it was not marketed as something fundamentally new, nor was it even in the same league as the CD or DVD formats in terms of marketing, research, funding, support, nor did it have a consortium to rectify its standards.

In effect, your comparison of this product that you choose to view as a "format" with Blu-Ray is just not justified because the latter is being made for multiple purposes and designed / rectified by many entities. To draw an example, its much the same way as one wouldn't call UMD a failed format - it is just a product that happened to have other uses (and continues to serve its purpose for many people like the minidisc) apart from playing games. Some other arguments can also be used for your labelling of Firewire as a failed format.

I said the MiniDisc system originally was not digital. This is because recording one required a person to actually connect it to a source and actually play the CD/song from start to finish in real time.
Read this.

Can you find "for the asian market" anywhere in that SONY press release? I couldn't.

It's not a digital device?

Quote:
Commenting on the growth opportunities presented by MD, Sony

Software President Michael Schulhof said Mini Disc will offer

"new momentum for the software industry." He added, "The digital

era of consumer audio has been firmly established by CD, and the

MD format will provide consumers with another digital

entertainment option
."
Found this.

I thought you said it launched much later in other parts of the world? Here it says it launched in 1992 in the USA. Thats the same year it was in Japan.
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 12:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy
Firewire hasnt failed
Ok, I just have never heard of anyone using it and haven't used it myself.


What do you use it for?
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 12:21 AM   #21
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Firewire is like the #1 interface for digital camcorders man. Its also best for Ipods and external drives.
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 12:29 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidavi
Firewire is like the #1 interface for digital camcorders man. Its also best for Ipods and external drives.
Oh. Why didn't they pack firewire in with my 5th gen. Ipod then??!!!


I never have used a digital cam or a external harddrive either. Never have had any use for them.

Ok. I stand corrected.

I actually read the Apple created the firewire technology so thats not really Sony anyway. My bad.
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 12:30 AM   #23
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^Oh, I didn't know the firewire wasn't included with the new ipods anymore. I know the old ones had it.
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 12:32 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renocide
Can you find "for the asian market" anywhere in that SONY press release? I couldn't.

I thought you said it launched much later in other parts of the world? Here it says it launched in 1992 in the USA. Thats the same year it was in Japan.
Indeed, it was but by the time I came in 2001, almost no one knew of the MD and I was the only one with such a device (except for the other asian kids from Hong Kong). It wasn't until a couple of years later that I saw actual MDs being sold in stores like mainstream stores like Bestbuy (around 2003?). I can only speculate that there was not a very serious push for it in the early years because of the aforementioned reason that the intended market was really Asia ( and you can read the reasons why it was successful in Asia in the article you posted, some of which I touched on ) because the North American market was simply not ready / not needing such a device. But yes, the official "launch" (or rather, introduction) was the same year.
Quote:
It's not a digital device?
Yes, the storage was digital in that it used optical media, but the point is that you had to record every single song in real time and when it was introduced (keep in mind even in Japan) many people had to record to it through analogue connections. I recall that back then it wasn't even known as ATRAC. Not only that, but the recording process was very very inconvenient and replacing pre-recorded songs was something you just would not want to deal with. It is far far removed from the digital audio mp3 that we know of today and if you have experience with one you would have realilzed why I chose not to include it in the digital age as we know it today.

Regardless, I still believe that I am correct in saying that MD was neither a "format" nor a "failed format" (after all, it *did* win against its rival, the DCC) in the sense that you and others want to use in your comparisons with Blu-Ray and I think that perhaps by now even you are aware of this.
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 12:49 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a little boy
Indeed, it was but by the time I came in 2001, almost no one knew of the MD and I was the only one with such a device (except for the other asian kids from Hong Kong). It wasn't until a couple of years later that I saw actual MDs being sold in stores like mainstream stores like Bestbuy (around 2003?). I can only speculate that there was not a very serious push for it in the early years because of the aforementioned reason that the intended market was really Asia ( and you can read the reasons why it was successful in Asia in the article you posted, some of which I touched on ) because the North American market was simply not ready / not needing such a device. But yes, the official "launch" (or rather, introduction) was the same year.

Yes, the storage was digital in that it used optical media, but the point is that you had to record every single song in real time and when it was introduced (keep in mind even in Japan) many people had to record to it through analogue connections. I recall that back then it wasn't even known as ATRAC. Not only that, but the recording process was very very inconvenient and replacing pre-recorded songs was something you just would not want to deal with. It is far far removed from the digital audio mp3 that we know of today and if you have experience with one you would have realilzed why I chose not to include it in the digital age as we know it today.

Regardless, I still believe that I am correct in saying that MD was neither a "format" nor a "failed format" (after all, it *did* win against its rival, the DCC) in the sense that you and others want to use in your comparisons with Blu-Ray and I think that perhaps by now even you are aware of this.

You'r wrong. It IS a format(even Sony says it is) and it HAS failed. Even Sony tried to relaunch the damn format three different times in the US. Why push a device in a market you never intended it to penetrate so many times? The relaunch in 1998 had a $30 million dollar budget. Pretty large sum during a period you claim they werent even trying to push it. And that was one of THREE during the 90s.

I remember seeing devices in Best Buy as early as 1997. It was probably there even earlier because I never went to the CD/MiniDisc section of the store since my DVD player played CDs already.

So far you have been wrong on the year it launched, what the intended market was, and whether it was a digital device or not. The only thing I you have proven to me is that you have little to zero knowledge of the format(Sony backs me up on calling it that too).
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 01:18 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renocide
You'r wrong. It IS a format(even Sony says it is) and it HAS failed. Even Sony tried to relaunch the damn format three different times in the US. Why push a device in a market you never intended it to penetrate so many times? The relaunch in 1998 had a $30 million dollar budget. Pretty large sum during a period you claim they werent even trying to push it. And that was one of THREE during the 90s.
Considering that they are Sony, of course they would call it a format. Would you think they would market it as a "device" or a "gadget we made over 10 years ago to take advantage of the Asian market"? If you say that because Sony calls it a format, it is a full-fledged format in the sense that we are trying to argue in this thread (and you wish to compare with CD and DVD), then by all means, I give in to your reasoning.

The simple matter is : it has succeeded its goal to take advantage of the money spenders in the Asian market by meeting their demands in the early 90s. The matter of fact is that in the early 90's N.America was still very behind in their thirst for such gadgets whereas in Asia, it was the exact opposite situation (a little bit of history for you). Things like LD flourished in Asia and later the VCD. Towards this end, companies like Sony tried bold things and were rewarded.

The problem as I have highlighted before was that from the beginning, this was a product intended for the Asian market (if you read the article you will have understood this). The reasons I believe this is so are listed already (again: lack of space, love of gadgets, fast adaptation, love of gimmicks and bubble economy) and the fact that the original launch was so weak is even more suggestive of this. The reasons for the relaunches later on (note this was 1998 according to the article) being so large budget supports this idea even more because at the time, they felt that the N.American market was asking for a new way of getting their portable music. In came the MD, which by then was very antique.

Unfortunately, by then MP3s and rewritable CDs were available (think about the argument that rewritable CDs and MP3s were a major reason why MDs failed and match up the timeline of when the relaunches were and it makes sense).
Quote:
So far you have been wrong on the year it launched, what the intended market was, and whether it was a digital device or not. The only thing I you have proven to me is that you have little to zero knowledge of the format(Sony backs me up on calling it that too).
Wrong on the year it was launched? I was off on the official introduction in the states but I don't believe I am wrong in saying that the actual push for it came much much later to N.America. So far I have produced logical and meaningful answers to all your inquiries and points and admitted my mistakes where I made them. On the other hand, you probably never even dealt with (an early) one before and thus have no idea why I made the statements I made in regards to the nature of the device and why I labelled it as not of the digital age. Not only this, but you have not tried to understand or fully comprehend the topic that is at hand or the points that I have made and have failed to grasp the missing links.

EDIT: Case in point to help you understand what I'm trying to point out when I say the device was originally intended (NOTE originally means at the time of making!) : would mid-range / high-end graphics cards be considered a "failed format" because the vast majority of computers in the world to not have them? These are forever going to be in a niche market even smaller than the number of people who have adopted MDs in Asia !

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Old Apr 9, 2006, 02:00 AM   #27
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Wrong. The first RELAUNCH was in 1994.

Quote:
Although this 1994 campaign is "widely regarded as one of the biggest music promotion giveaways ever," sales in the following years were still mediocre
That was two years after the initial launch FAILED to sale.

It IS a format!!! Why do you not understand this? Can I take a MiniDisc and stick it in my CD/DVD player or do I needed a specificly designed piece of hardware to play it? Did anything prior to the minidisc use ATRAC prior to the minidisc? I'm not trying to show you thats it's a format for the sake of this argument Im telling you it's a format because it is.

Quote:
Unfortunately, by then MP3s and rewritable CDs were available (think about the argument that rewritable CDs and MP3s were a major reason why MDs failed and match up the timeline of when the relaunches were and it makes sense).
MD failed because it sucked. It was launched in 1992 nearly FIVE years prior to read/writeable CDs arrived on the market. So your saying, NOW, that it failed and that it failed because CD-RW? Again, cause you seem so slow in grasping these things..

1992 - MD lauched.
1997 - CD-RW launched.

MD failed because of the rewriteable CDs??????

Not to mention Sony showed a complete lack of sense in relaunching the MD in 1998 a full year after the rewriteable CDs(which ISNT a new format) was launched!!! BRILLIANT SONY!!

Edit - It was never intended for the Asian market regardless of how much you want to paint it that way. Sony is a worldwide brand. They don't make things that are geared to any particular market. They design what they think people want regardless of where they are in the world. Unless you have some prior Sony employement that your keeping from everyone where you sat in on the board meetings and dsicussed business strategies.

Last edited by Renocide : Apr 9, 2006 at 02:05 AM.
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 02:12 AM   #28
Night Fisher
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This thread has been seriously hijacked...
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 02:17 AM   #29
Renocide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Fisher
This thread has been seriously hijacked...
My fault. Sorry.


Altho the article did talk about the UMD format not being used in the next version of the PSP.

I did learn alot about a format that I will never use though!!!
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Old Apr 9, 2006, 02:25 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Renocide
Wrong. The first RELAUNCH was in 1994.
That was two years after the initial launch FAILED to sale.
I was replying to the your reference of the first big launch in which you specified the big launch budget of $30 million in 1998.

Quote:
It IS a format!!! Why do you not understand this? Can I take a MiniDisc and stick it in my CD/DVD player or do I needed a specificly designed piece of hardware to play it? Did anything prior to the minidisc use ATRAC prior to the minidisc? I'm not trying to show you thats it's a format for the sake of this argument Im telling you it's a format because it is.
If that is all that is needed to make a format, then we need to re-evaluate many things as formats. We are arguing semantics here: I am saying it is not a format in the way that you want to compare things, most notably to Blu-Ray. Why? Based on its target audience, development time (1 year. Let that sink into your head), and sloppy push in N.America. For a format, multiple companies need to have invested in it and need to be pushing it with multiple partners (ie. CD and DVD). MD is definitely not a format in this sense.

Quote:
MD failed because it sucked. It was launched in 1992 nearly FIVE years prior to read/writeable CDs arrived on the market. So your saying, NOW, that it failed and that it failed because CD-RW? Again, cause you seem so slow in grasping these things..
The MD did not fail in that it managed to dethrone the one competitor it had : the DCC. Both were in the race to replace cassette tapes as a portable audio medium. It also didn't fail because it served its purpose of capturing the Asian market.

It was announced. I feel that if it was "launched" in typical Sony style, there would be no way that by 1998, almost 75% of adults in America did not know of the existence of the format (article you found). Let this sink in too.

Quote:
1992 - MD lauched.
1997 - CD-RW launched.

MD failed because of the rewriteable CDs??????
As previoiusly stated, I feel that the true "launch" ($30 million dollar budget) in America was in 1998 and by then CD-RW / MP3s were on the market and MD was old technology.

Quote:
Edit - It was never intended for the Asian market regardless of how much you want to paint it that way. Sony is a worldwide brand. They don't make things that are geared to any particular market. They design what they think people want regardless of where they are in the world. Unless you have some prior Sony employement that your keeping from everyone where you sat in on the board meetings and dsicussed business strategies.
I have presented my arguements with sufficient support and whether you accept the first part of this paragraph is your choice to make. But saying that Sony don't make things geared to any particular market because they are a worldwide brand definitely paints you as a very ignorant person. If you truly think that is true, then you really need to look into the Asian market or perhaps anywhere outside of America. It would also be no wonder that you don't understand what I have said.

As a last resort, another example : is the Xbox a failed format because they failed to penetrate Asia? Imagine me using most of the points I used here with you with a cousin of mine who refuses to believe that it isn't.

EDIT to be on topic : In any event...I hope the PSP fails and backs out of the portable gaming business. Its one area where I feel innovation is much called for (I have yet to see evidence to make me believe people are satisfied with home console games on the go) and Nintendo excels in the area whereas Sony is just piling on the technological goodies.

Last edited by a little boy : Apr 9, 2006 at 02:29 AM.
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