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Old May 30, 1999, 10:36 PM   #1
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BeardedClem
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Default Re: Yeah, but........

Quote:
Originally posted by cveale
This is all well and good if a scene was designed with a low polygon count to begin with. Then Trueform could internally "up" the number of triangles and display them , thus saving bandwidth. But.... what if the scene was drawn with a high polygon count to begin with. There will be no geometry savings , because if the polygon count is already high enough to emulate curves and smooth edges, then the Truespace method will not really increase the detail much but still have to read all the vertex data for the trianges. What I am worried about is everyone coding for NVidia and creating high polygon count games because the is the only good method the GeForce3 has to create the illusion of curved surfaces. What do you guys think?

I belive the article said you can increase or decrease the number of extrapolated triangles the gpu draws, so you might choose a less complex N-mesh for a future game with high polygon model that doesn't need many more polys to look smooth.

But my question is this:

It seems to say that Trueform can be used for any game, even old ones like Quake 1. Is this true? does this mean that game developers don't even have to program for it for the benefits to be seen? If so, that would would be the deciding factor in my choice of a Radeon2 over a Geforce3 next year. If not, it would be just another cool new video card feature that goes unused because game developers have to write specific code for it.
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Old May 30, 1999, 10:37 PM   #2
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Default well

if the game is already as smooth as possible: turn of the N-Patch feature
as simple as that
or don't implement it in the program code

to very easy options
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Old May 29, 2001, 05:30 AM   #3
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Default ATI's TRUFORM Technology In-Depth

http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?ArticleID=701<BR>

a very intresting read to say the LEAST !!!
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Old May 29, 2001, 05:34 AM   #4
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Old May 29, 2001, 05:35 AM   #5
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"While at e3 we were shown a few demos of TRUFORM working in realtime, ths first of these is pictured above. First we saw a dolphin which had a relatively low polygon count. Running below it, in split-screen, was a dolphin that had been run through TRUFORM. The difference was amazing."

"The dolphin on TRUFORM not only was lit more realistically, but appeared more life-like. Gone were the boxy edges and corners that most 3D gamers have become accustomed to. Instead the dolphin was rounded, curvy, etc etc. It looked like a damn dolphin."

http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.c...eid=701&page=4
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Old May 29, 2001, 06:19 AM   #6
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Default wooooow

that's amazing

Radeon II will suport this? (can't read it all right now)
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Old May 29, 2001, 06:43 AM   #7
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word is YES the Radeon (r200) will indeed have TRUFORM support.

Also of more interest:
The BOY WONDER does ATI, in TRUly wonderful FORM I must say too...

http://anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1476

"Briefly, what TRUFORM technology does is take triangle information from a game, internally convert the triangles into curved surfaces, .....
Since all of this occurs in the TRUFORM capable T&L engine, no performance is lost in the creation of the new surfaces."

"Once the surface is curved, it is then chopped into segments of smaller triangles in a process known as tessellation.
The surface can be split as many times as desired, and an increased number of splits results in an increased image quality. It is with these splits that TRUFORM creates a renderable set of triangles out of the curved surface it just made.
Once again, since the tessellation process occurs in the TRUFORM T&L segment of the ATI chip, no performance is lost. Also, since the texture information for this new, super triangle is exactly the same texture information needed for the original triangle, no additional information needs to be passed over the memory bus."

"On the programing side, applying TRUFORM technology to a new or existing game actually only requires one line of code: the rest of done in the T&L part of ATI's chip.
Since TRUFORM uses the information that is already there to make games look better, it can be applied to every 3D game on the market. This means that everything you currently play has the potential to look better on a card with TRUFORM technology.
"


basically TRUFORM (curved surfaces thru the use of N-Patches) comes at NO addition perfomance COST, enabling TRUFORM is as simple as ONE LINE of CODE and TRUFORM can be used by not only new games but ALL existing games as well.
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Old May 29, 2001, 06:53 AM   #8
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Default yup

I read the whole article, couldn't wait =)

damn that stuff is amazing!!!

Radeon II MAXX is gonne be THE shiet!!!!

combined with a Palomino and the new 300Mhz DDR
ohh damn, that's gonna be one outstanding rig

now wich bank should I rob?
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Old May 29, 2001, 06:54 AM   #9
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Exclamation

Another in-depth analysis of TRUEFORM (in German)

www.3dconcept.ch
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Old May 29, 2001, 07:16 AM   #10
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the ONLY bad I could find was that the Radeon 2 WILL NOT have pixel shaders 1.1, but then again with TRUFORM who NEEDS Pixel shaders 1.1 ?!

Geforce WHO ?
NV WHAT ?
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Old May 29, 2001, 07:53 AM   #11
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Thumbs up Makes sence

Now it makes sence that Radeon 2 will actually be shipped at fall. I was wondering what took them so long to implement DX8.1 specs when Radeon is actually quite close to it.





The result of TRUEFORM looked good - a bit too much reflection I would say but still very good. Hopefully this will be used by the developers too (not just as an option to turn it on and hope it looks great, which I believe will not be the case everytime). I just hope ATI didn't reveal this info too early so that nVidia can duplicate it or start bashing that "it's not good for anything" or "it has this and that flaw" etc. bs . They most certainly will!





@md_guy: I may have read the article a bit too fast but to IIRC ATI didn't say that they will not implement pixel shaders. I think, it's quite important feature because of GeFarce 3 and developers commitment to GF3 - they most certainly will use it so ATI should implement it.





And what comes to benchmarks then at least at the fall they will be more or less obsolete. How can you measure image quality with benchmark app? That's what TRUEFORM really improves.





I would like to be a fly at the ceiling at nVidia now


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Old May 29, 2001, 08:01 AM   #12
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Default grrr

if they don't implement pixel shaders I'm gonna kill 'em!!!

why the hell shouldn't they?!
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Old May 29, 2001, 08:07 AM   #13
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Default check it out!

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Old May 29, 2001, 08:15 AM   #14
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Default according to this article

most software will be constructed with Trueform-type of technology in mind

apparently GF3 is missing at least 2 important DX8 features, while radII will support 8.1 to the fullest

yay!
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Old May 29, 2001, 08:29 AM   #15
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by @md_Guy
the ONLY bad I could find was that the Radeon 2 WILL NOT have pixel shaders 1.1
What are you talking about ????
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Old May 29, 2001, 08:52 AM   #16
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Default ca you imagine?!

EBMB, Pixel Shading, Vertex Shading, TRUFORM etc.
and all the other nice features you an think of

using all of those should be a possiblílity using the RAdeon II and a Palomino/"new" Pentium 4 (whatever they're called) without that much of a speedloss

imagine photorealistic, Toy Story type of graphics running at 60-70 fps!!!

damn we're in for a ride that you couldn't even imagine just a few months ago

so.. who'll team up with me and rob some bank or something?
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Old May 29, 2001, 09:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkVamp


What are you talking about ????
Read it SLLOOWWLLYY if you must ....

The Radeon 2 (most LIKELY) WILL NOT have full 1.1 pixel shader support !!

Read it again if YOU MUST:

The Radeon 2 (most LIKELY) WILL NOT have full 1.1 pixel shader support !!


This comes from 3 seperate and RELIABLE sources, ALL of whom meet and spoke with ATI represenatives at e3.

For those who prefer to see it in print:
http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.c...eid=701&page=8

"One feature lacking will be the use a full scale pixel shader, a technology included in the GeForce3 from Nvidia, and shown off in the fourth demo of 3DMark2001. It is entirely possible that this ATI technology will make a pixel-shader unimportant.
I brought up this issue to the ATI guys while meeting with them at E3. The Radeon2 will more than likely not have a DirectX 8.1 compliant pixel-shader."

Don't get me wrong, I have supported ATI (through thick and through thin from Mach64 all th eway up to 3 Radeon based products. I (IMO) still believe the Radeon to be AHEAD of the GF3 (feature wise) and that it is the GF3 CATCHING up to the Radeon as far as features and support HOWEVER UNLESS you have PERSONAL contacts at ATI who can personally confirm that PS 1.1 WILL indeed be supported my post remains as is.

I value all of your opinions however I do NOT take lightly to being attacked simply because I deliver news that YOU personally may not like. I made the decision a week ago to withhold this info until today hoping that ATI would withdraw their position on PS 1.1 however thay have NOT done so as of yet and I feel it necessary to alert potential Radeon users/purchasers BEFORE they get THEIR minds made up that the Radeon 2 will offer such support. There is nothing worse than wild speculation forming the basis of peoples expectastions only to be let down in the end of THEIR own projections and not those of the deveopers.
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Old May 29, 2001, 09:02 AM   #18
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkVamp


What are you talking about ????
I think he is talking about this: http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.c...eid=701&page=8
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Old May 29, 2001, 09:11 AM   #19
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Default too bad

according to that german article it will support both vertex and pixel shaders though

sure hope so
I don't belive that truform could replace the shader in any way
the implementations of the two are completly different

they better get their act together
the step from the radeon 0.5 to 1.0 or 1.1 can't be that far now can it? (even though they are not much alike at least they have the full specs of the technology now)
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Old May 29, 2001, 09:20 AM   #20
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Default i love anandtech...

i love this quote too:
"NVIDIA was the first card manufacturers to emphasize image improving features over frame rate with their GeForce3 product."

thats funny. first i love that fact that now NVIDIA is a card manufacturer(s). and the fact that NVIDIA was the first to focus on improving features over framerate.

what a hoot!
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Old May 29, 2001, 09:24 AM   #21
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Default

Great...Some more ATI Technology that Nvidia can steal(Hyper Z anyone?)..
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Old May 29, 2001, 09:25 AM   #22
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yeah I saw that too..mad eme LAUGH my @$$ off !!!

Like the words NVidia and Image Enhancing need be in the SAME sentence !
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Old May 29, 2001, 09:51 AM   #23
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This stuff is amazing, I maybe upgrading sooner then I thought. Gotta get, Gotta get Radeon 2 .
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Old May 29, 2001, 10:47 AM   #24
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N-Patches are cool, it's nice to see them in a video card for the PC, hope the drivers for the Radeon 2 are better than the Radeon drivers though.
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Old May 29, 2001, 11:27 AM   #25
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Unhappy

I think that ATI should have kept secret still these infos on their new technologies. When RadII will be released around september, it won't be a big surprise for Nvidia and co. It will have the same effect than with Radeon 1, not much enthusiasm in reviews because Nvidia will annonce in a near future probably such a feature for it's next card which will be released very soonly after Rad2... (HyperZ has been very copied like you know and it's Nvidia who got all rewards with its GF3... )
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Old May 29, 2001, 12:53 PM   #26
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i like this stuff, it makes me happy


seriously though... this is just another step that ATI is taking to make games LOOK GOOD, which is the opposite of NVIDIA.... im applaud ATI for doing this!
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Old May 29, 2001, 12:58 PM   #27
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From a PDF on ATI's site
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Old May 29, 2001, 02:24 PM   #28
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I think ATI is forgetting all the games that are being developed with nVidia in mind. The general population of gamers jump on any bandwagon they see, and the newest would be the GF3 bandwagon. By not supporting features for games that will be out with pixel shading (which will debut before we see truform anywhere), they're cutting themselves off from a vital link of games. Please ATI, why can't we have the best of both worlds? And some good 16-bit quality?
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Old May 29, 2001, 02:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by qwqwq



From a PDF on ATI's site
That pic loads painfully slow and then just stops after 80k or so
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Old May 29, 2001, 03:06 PM   #30
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Not supporting Pixel Shaders is a big mistake. How many OEMs will choose a video card that does not have full DX8.1 compliance? Get it right ATI!
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