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Smartphones, Tablets and Handheld Computing From Android, Symbian to Apple devices, this is the place for discussion and debate, whether it's smartphones, tablets or even gaming handhelds.

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Old Oct 28, 2014, 03:13 PM   #151
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ViN86
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Originally Posted by VVanks View Post
There is HUGE development projects going on to expand this also for later years (massive long term strategy at work here, Google Wallet seems to be lacking in any long term strategy and they're saying Google is just no scrambling to get things started)
I'd really love to know how you reached the conclusion that wallet has no "long term strategy" for a system that is already in place and doesn't need any input from banks because it's handled on Google's end. Also, I'd really love to hear why Pay is so much more secure than Wallet.

EDIT: just finished your last post, so there's a problem with refunds, I get that. But is the main reason so that your CC company can't see your transactions? I guess I don't understand why that matters.
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Old Oct 28, 2014, 03:20 PM   #152
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Apple was also shunned by the government. And don't forget that there are plenty of Chinese companies that have massive sales of Android devices. I am not sure what you are implying here, regardless
Sorry, shunned by the PEOPLE. Google has such a bad reputation in China. It'as almost nonexistent - Baidu, Youkou, Ren Ren, WeiBo are basically Google, Youtube, Facebook and Twitter. Except Apple is still APPLE.

I'm implying that Apple is revered as foreign luxury brand, on the same vein as Audi, Lexus, Maserati etc.

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Eh, I wouldn't go so far as "ridiculously well thought out". As I said, Apple is a corporation. They have the same problems and issues as any corporation. I have a lot of friends and former colleagues who work there. We discuss projects, etc. all the time. Obviously, NDA stuff isn't discussed, but there are plenty of other areas of overlap and makes for good discussion points.

Look at the product that was demoed. It was crap. The ONLY thing I liked about it was built-in NFC. Everything else was rubbish. 10-15 years well thought out my ass.

Now, when it's finally released, as before, it's going to dominate the news cycle via free advertising and people will buy millions. It doesn't make it a better product (see iPhone 4S, 5, 5S/C, some recycled iPad's, etc. for other crap products that sold a ton).

The free advertising and built-in early adopter status symbol stuff allows Apple to fail. But whereas other companies adopt a more fail-fast setup (see Samsung), Apple doesn't have to. They can afford to chill for a few months and tune stuff and release another product, and everything is magically forgotten.

It is a true luxury
Sorry I don't know what you mean by the product they demoed was crap. Which product? The watch? OR this Apple pay system?

The watch I agree, because I have no idea what they're trying to do with it. And it'll be priced from $349 to like $6,000 (or so my friends tell me)

When I say 10-15 years I mean into the future. I'm not sure which friends you have inside Apple, maybe we have the same colleagues, but the ones I know are mostly in design / engineering. They are thinking the coolaid when they tell me the strategies, but they do have much better management / thinkers there than other places we've worked at (Google / BlackBerry / Amazon etc)

Last edited by VVanks : Oct 28, 2014 at 03:46 PM.
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Old Oct 28, 2014, 03:31 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by ViN86 View Post
I'd really love to know how you reached the conclusion that wallet has no "long term strategy" for a system that is already in place and doesn't need any input from banks because it's handled on Google's end. Also, I'd really love to hear why Pay is so much more secure than Wallet.

EDIT: just finished your last post, so there's a problem with refunds, I get that. But is the main reason so that your CC company can't see your transactions? I guess I don't understand why that matters.
The problem isn't refunds. The problem is that Contactless works by creating a prepaid credit card from Bancorp, sending your money to Bancorp's credit card, and then paying the merchant from Bancorp.

Bancorp has a record of all transactions every made on Contactless.

Financial institutions are powered by big data analysis, sending all your transactions to another is a huge problem.
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Old Oct 28, 2014, 03:47 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by VVanks View Post
The problem isn't refunds. The problem is that Contactless works by creating a prepaid credit card from Bancorp, sending your money to Bancorp's credit card, and then paying the merchant from Bancorp.

Bancorp has a record of all transactions every made on Contactless.

Financial institutions are powered by big data analysis, sending all your transactions to another is a huge problem.
Yes, but that's only if there's a single virtual card per user. Is that the case? I haven't found anything that indicates each user has a unique virtual card. This is all I could find, and it doesn't indicate how it's done: https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2740044?hl=en

If Google bundles sales onto a single virtual card or issues a virtual card for each transaction, then Bancorp essentially has none of your information, since none of it is correlated.
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Old Oct 28, 2014, 04:43 PM   #155
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Sorry, shunned by the PEOPLE. Google has such a bad reputation in China. It'as almost nonexistent - Baidu, Youkou, Ren Ren, WeiBo are basically Google, Youtube, Facebook and Twitter. Except Apple is still APPLE.

I'm implying that Apple is revered as foreign luxury brand, on the same vein as Audi, Lexus, Maserati etc.
I have no idea what you are implying at this point, to tell you the truth. I never said that Apple doesn't have a premium label.

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Sorry I don't know what you mean by the product they demoed was crap. Which product? The watch? OR this Apple pay system?

The watch I agree, because I have no idea what they're trying to do with it. And it'll be priced from $349 to like $6,000 (or so my friends tell me)
The watch.

Quote:
When I say 10-15 years I mean into the future.
I never assumed otherwise.

Quote:
I'm not sure which friends you have inside Apple, maybe we have the same colleagues, but the ones I know are mostly in design / engineering. They are thinking the coolaid when they tell me the strategies, but they do have much better management / thinkers there than other places we've worked at (Google / BlackBerry / Amazon etc)
There is a lot of koolaid drinking within Apple, a lot of high pressure deadlines for teams to meet, teams that due to secrecy, may not be speaking to each other till later in the game and then have to get things right.

Fortunately, the rate of development for most things at Apple is slower than at other places, and they have a standard ecosystem to work with, which eases integration.

With regards to better management/thinkers, I disagree again. If we are going by the smartest folks, Google and Microsoft are going to reign. Apple has recently acquired a lot of people, but the mainstay behind what it was (and remains) was created by Steve Jobs (and the Woz?) and his drive and his edicts.

With the technology available at that time, Jobs did many awesome things.

With the technology available today, Cook is sitting on his ass. Look at how much wasted space there is in the iPhone, for example.

The label hides many blemishes, but you have to look beyond it.

Going back to Apple Pay, I have no issues with it. I think it's a good thing. Hopefully there is more consolidation and standardization.

There was a cross-post on reddit from /r/apple to /r/android asking for collaboration against CurrentC or whatever it's called, and the anti-competitive crap companies like CVS are pulling.
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Old Oct 28, 2014, 04:52 PM   #156
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I agree that Apple Pay is a good thing, but it's not revolutionary by any means. More companies pushing NFC payments is always a good thing, IMO.
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Old Oct 28, 2014, 09:54 PM   #157
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Yes, but that's only if there's a single virtual card per user. Is that the case? I haven't found anything that indicates each user has a unique virtual card. This is all I could find, and it doesn't indicate how it's done: https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2740044?hl=en

If Google bundles sales onto a single virtual card or issues a virtual card for each transaction, then Bancorp essentially has none of your information, since none of it is correlated.
I'm speaking from a development point of view, the fact that I have to send a third party anything is already grounds for security problems.

None of these are deal breakers, however, a vast majority of banks weren't onboard until the Tokenization standard came to fruition.
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Old Oct 28, 2014, 10:14 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by VVanks View Post
I'm speaking from a development point of view, the fact that I have to send a third party anything is already grounds for security problems.


I am not following here.

Google, I guess surety, with the bank in question. I fail to see what the security implications here are?

Token's are one way to address the security question. But don't forget that we are just a few short weeks removed from the fappening. Blind faith in the security of something or other is usually not a good idea.

Apple is relatively new to the idea of personal security and anonymization. Recall their tracking of your cell data and the format they kept it in.

It's a good thing, but come on man, you can't possibly be THIS gung-ho and paper over all the other tracking, etc. Apple is tracking you and can share your digital profile just like Google is tracking you. Google is just better at it.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 06:22 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by VVanks View Post
I'm speaking from a development point of view, the fact that I have to send a third party anything is already grounds for security problems.

None of these are deal breakers, however, a vast majority of banks weren't onboard until the Tokenization standard came to fruition.
Of course the banks weren't on board, Google wasn't using their virtual cards.

Back to the discussion, isn't the security "problem" on Google's end, not the consumers? I mean, they're the ones that have to create the virtual card and refill it. Also, Google Wallet has 100% fraud protection for unauthorized purchases.

It still seems like the biggest difference between the two is that Apple Pay is more convenient due to TouchID. But, personally for me, entering a PIN isn't a huge deal *shrug*.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 11:27 AM   #160
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http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/29/m...act-apple-pay/

Quote:
When CVS and Rite-Aid shut off their NFC-based payments to prevent customers from using Apple Pay, we heard it was because they're part of a large group developing rival technology CurrentC. Now, The New York Times has shed more light on the issue, and it turns out they did it not just to stifle the competition, but also because they're contractually obligated not to offer Apple Pay in their stores. The whole Merchant Customer Exchange (MCX) group, including these two drug stores and big-box retailers Walmart and Best Buy, signed a contract years ago that binds them to Current C. That contract, signed way before anyone knew if Apple Pay was ever going to materialize, prevents them from supporting rival technologies, as doing so will earn them outrageous fines.

CurrentC's the ideal payment method for MCX retailers, because it connects directly to people's bank accounts, eliminating the need to pay credit card fees. Also, it allows stores to track customers' spending habits themselves. Problem is, it won't be ready until 2015, and by then customers might already be too attached to Apple Pay to consider anything else and demand its use in MCX members' outlets. Of course, it's always possible for Apple Pay not to catch on in the end, but -- bad news for this bunch of companies -- it's doing really well thus far.
Contracts are why these retailers can't support Apple Pay or even Google Wallet. Pathetic, really.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 11:39 AM   #161
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http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/29/m...act-apple-pay/



Contracts are why these retailers can't support Apple Pay or even Google Wallet. Pathetic, really.
I'm willing to bet we will see a lawsuit about the legality of these contracts soon.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 11:39 AM   #162
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Apparently CurrentC was just hacked and their email database was compromised.

Thank you for your interest in CurrentC. You are receiving this message because you are either a participant in our pilot program or requested information about CurrentC. Within the last 36 hours, we learned that unauthorized third parties obtained the e-mail addresses of some of you. Based on investigations conducted by MCX security personnel, only these e-mail addresses were involved and no other information.


Undoubtedly in response to their strong-arm tactics for NFC users.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 11:45 AM   #163
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So I'm supposed to now assume that Apple and Google, two companies that have stored credit card information for years now with few incidents, are less secure than some brand new service that dropped the buzzword "encrypted cloud"?

Yea, this is going to be a disaster for MCX.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 02:37 PM   #164
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FWIW, Apple makes the process sound simpler and therefore more appealing for folks, and they have done a good job getting merchants/etc. on board.

Google didn't make it as easy to understand the process (even though it is just as easy in practice) and while you can pay with Wallet, the marketing doesn't seem to suggest this as well as Apple's.
Google was hamstrung by the fact that carriers could block Wallet to push their own NFC payment solutions. Apple has absolute control over the hardware and can dictate terms to carriers. Block Apple Pay? No iPhones for you.

There was also the fact that Wallet was extremely broken in its early form. I had my Galaxy Nexus for about 6 months before the damned Wallet app would accept my CC number.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 03:44 PM   #165
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Google was hamstrung by the fact that carriers could block Wallet to push their own NFC payment solutions. Apple has absolute control over the hardware and can dictate terms to carriers. Block Apple Pay? No iPhones for you.

There was also the fact that Wallet was extremely broken in its early form. I had my Galaxy Nexus for about 6 months before the damned Wallet app would accept my CC number.
Yes, but they are also hamstrung by lack of NFC solutions available at POS.

Apple, coming in now, has seen what has happened with ISIS and Wallet and other methods and don't have the same issue at POS.

It's a good solution, better in some ways than the others, but all the methods are solid AND, fortunately, it seems all will work with most of the same end points making this less proprietary and more of a standard.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 04:48 PM   #166
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A nice summary on Engadget from someone who used both Wallet and Pay for a little while:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/29/w...let/#continued

Seems there are some growing pains, and Wallet is just as good, if not better, in many respects. Apple Pay seems easier to setup initially, but doesn't work with the same range of cards as Wallet does.

Either way, this makes things a lot easier for mobile pay methods.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 09:46 PM   #167
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NFC enabled SIM cards. Authorized by your bank, given to you by your mobile carrier, used/controlled through your banks own App and can be OS agnostic. Screw adding more parties to the mix.
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Old Oct 29, 2014, 10:05 PM   #168
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NFC enabled SIM cards. Authorized by your bank, given to you by your mobile carrier, used/controlled through your banks own App and can be OS agnostic. Screw adding more parties to the mix.
That's basically what Softcard is, though they use AMEX instead of banks.
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Old Nov 1, 2014, 12:01 PM   #169
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Used Apple Pay again today. The hardest part is remembering I don't need to take my wallet out.
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Old Nov 3, 2014, 05:58 AM   #170
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So one extra button press? So inconvenient
http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/...google-wallet/

Apple Pay offers a more streamlined and effortless approach to tap-to-pay. You don’t have to wake your phone, open the app, or enter a PIN to complete your purchase. You just tap to pay, press your finger to Touch ID, and you’re done. Google Wallet requires you to wake your phone and sometimes it won’t work unless you open the app. At the end of your purchase, you either have to select credit as your payment method or enter your Google Wallet PIN.

It’s these extra little steps that are annoying and slow down the process. Most customers aren’t going to put up with Google Wallet’s eccentricities. At the risk of sounding like a total Apple fan girl, Apple Pay just works.
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Old Nov 3, 2014, 03:49 PM   #171
Sazar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeydust View Post
http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/...google-wallet/

Apple Pay offers a more streamlined and effortless approach to tap-to-pay. You don’t have to wake your phone, open the app, or enter a PIN to complete your purchase. You just tap to pay, press your finger to Touch ID, and you’re done. Google Wallet requires you to wake your phone and sometimes it won’t work unless you open the app. At the end of your purchase, you either have to select credit as your payment method or enter your Google Wallet PIN.

It’s these extra little steps that are annoying and slow down the process. Most customers aren’t going to put up with Google Wallet’s eccentricities. At the risk of sounding like a total Apple fan girl, Apple Pay just works.
I like the touch ID and the overall implementation you see with Apple's setup. Google Wallet could use a little refinement, but at the end of the day, it's available on a lot more devices, in the US and elsewhere, and has a larger install base by default. Apple saw what Google and others were doing and had done and went one better.

Personally, if I was to go with a device simply for paying for stuff, I'd probably lean Apple. Also, their watch is supposed to have NFC built-in which is going to be a massive win, regardless of how crap the actual device looked in it's first public showing.

Android Wear devices currently don't have NFC.

Once NFC is prevalent in wearables, the whole concept of phone's doing the buying is going to look quaint

Android Wear devices with NFC are forthcoming per the rumor mill, and the expectation remains that Apple's watch will launch with it. If it doesn't, MASSIVE miss by Apple. I don't expect it not to though.
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