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Old Jul 24, 2013, 04:15 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Athlon-pv View Post
It is not about short term it is about long term , MS wanted a piece of the ARM business but shot itself in the foot with Surface.
ARM business in a short term for them, just a little project on the side. It doesn't matter.

Serious, long term goal for Microsoft is improving Surface Pro on Intel.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 04:53 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Athlon-pv View Post
Point to where I'm saying that MS is falling apart? All I'm saying is that Surface/WindowsRT is not going to work for them. And the core business of desktops is declining.
So when MS is being monopoly MS it fails badly the only way if they subsidize their failed product.

When your main market is "collapsing" and your new market is the place you take a dump it is not going anywhere.


I think your comments indicate it's more than just Surface/RT

Quote:
It is not about short term it is about long term , MS wanted a piece of the ARM business but shot itself in the foot with Surface. This is bad when you want to expand in a market you have no foothold in.
ARM is a nice-to-have because of cross-pollination/SDK's and so forth tied to apps. Microsoft locking down the OS on RT was a boneheaded move and they will need to relax some policies if they want to resuscitate RT. New Haswell SKU's should help, but they definitely need to do more.

Quote:
You can not do both and sell "your own" (MS) hardware and have companies sell your OS on their hardware and charge money for it.
Not much different than Nexus with Google when you think about it. Do I agree with it? Not necessarily. But the product itself (Surface Pro/RT) is quite good from a hardware design standpoint and with new processors, it's only going to get better.

The software/store policies on the other hand, they will need to be tweaked.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 07:08 PM   #63
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With regards to Intel and it's plans; one of the iOS guys I work with had a chat with the Intel engineer guys at GDC and a choice quote from him was along the lines of "we didn't really compete on power because frankly it was only recently we started trying".

This is pretty evident in the power strides in the last couple of years as designs trickle into the products, certainly on the mobile side.

They also have some other cool tech coming down the line but a quick Google search doesn't show it up as being 'out there' (I'd do a better search but it's midnight and I need to be up for work in 6h...) so I'm not going to spill the beans.

The long and the short of it is ARM have had it easy up until now, while I won't say Intel will just turn up and pound them into the ground the fight is about to get a LOT more interesting.
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 02:15 AM   #64
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ARM business in a short term for them, just a little project on the side. It doesn't matter.

Serious, long term goal for Microsoft is improving Surface Pro on Intel.
Now there is a contradiction if I ever saw one, so you make your Windows run on ARM then dump it again?

This is a goal? Run a piece of bloated OS on a piece of hardware that is fast enough eventually to run the bloated OS?

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Originally Posted by Sazar View Post
So when MS is being monopoly MS it fails badly the only way if they subsidize their failed product.

When your main market is "collapsing" and your new market is the place you take a dump it is not going anywhere.


I think your comments indicate it's more than just Surface/RT

Not necessarily. But the product itself (Surface Pro/RT) is quite good from a hardware design standpoint and with new processors, it's only going to get better.
.
RT is dead, no one will touch it any more but people who are paid to like Dell and Nivida.

Again the OS is dead there is no waiting for hardware that is fast enough to run it, you will lose out in hardware costs versus your competitor , it is like building a $5000 gaming desktop to be able to do the same thing as a gaming console that costs $500 see the problem here?
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 03:35 AM   #65
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This is a goal? Run a piece of bloated OS on a piece of hardware that is fast enough eventually to run the bloated OS?
All current (and even a few previous generations) chips on desktops can run Windows and Ubuntu and Mac OS X fast enough, so whining about desktops OS "bloat" doesn't make sense.
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 07:54 AM   #66
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All current (and even a few previous generations) chips on desktops can run Windows and Ubuntu and Mac OS X fast enough, so whining about desktops OS "bloat" doesn't make sense.
They're also plugged into the wall, often in the case with PCs, 600+ W power supplies.
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 01:27 PM   #67
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Well, TDP on today's CPUs are much less than 600W...

Also:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/23/45...tially-fanless
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 02:56 PM   #68
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HAL isn't really responding to most of the retorts that have invalidated his claims/vision of Microsoft's "irrelevance". It's at the point of blanket statement segways now for him.


What I've found in this thread, is that, this may be the only topic on the face of the planet that Sazar, Elysian and myself agree on.
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 03:54 PM   #69
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All current (and even a few previous generations) chips on desktops can run Windows and Ubuntu and Mac OS X fast enough, so whining about desktops OS "bloat" doesn't make sense.
Well desktop chips don't run windowsRT. But in case you are new to computers let me explain it in short for you.

Android , small compact OS
Windows, Big bloated OS.

Memory requirements for Android are smaller then for WindowsRT.

Maybe you should take a course in how to design a functional OS at your local university, that is if they already have computers over there.
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 04:18 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Athlon-pv View Post
Well desktop chips don't run windowsRT.
RT doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Athlon-pv View Post
Android , small compact OS
Windows, Big bloated OS.
Bloated usually means "hardware struggles to handle it", otherwise having more features is a plus. Of course "small, runs fast" wins over "big, runs slow". But when hardware can handle both just fine, then having OS with more features wins.
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 04:25 PM   #71
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RT doesn't matter.



Bloated usually means "hardware struggles to handle it", otherwise having more features is a plus. Of course "small, runs fast" wins over "big, runs slow". But when hardware can handle both just fine, then having OS with more features wins.
I thought bloated mean junk pre-loaded softwares?
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 07:22 PM   #72
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I thought bloated mean junk pre-loaded softwares?
Bloated means it takes to much diskspace and to much memory resources and has little to no functionality in some cases.

Last edited by Athlon-pv : Jul 26, 2013 at 07:25 PM.
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 07:27 PM   #73
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Bloated means it takes to much diskspace and to much memory resources and has little to no functionality in some cases.
Full Windows has virtually unlimited functionality, much moreso than a mobile platform. Space concerns just don't make sense with how cheap memory is.
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 09:57 PM   #74
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RT doesn't matter.



Bloated usually means "hardware struggles to handle it", otherwise having more features is a plus. Of course "small, runs fast" wins over "big, runs slow". But when hardware can handle both just fine, then having OS with more features wins.
If people we scrambling for Windows on tablets, people would be buying them. Doesn't really matter with regards to hardware. Any advances that Microsoft and it's OEMs make with regards to speed and performance will more than likely be matched by the ARM world, and the ARM world can more easily add functionality with greater hardware improvements closing whatever gap you think Microsoft currently enjoys. Microsoft may have greater functionality, but people don't care in the mobile space. Again, if consumers want Windows, they'd be buying Surface RT and Surface Pro irregardless of hardware which illustrates how weak the argument is that people want Windows; to blame poor hardware is a convenient excuse to try and keep morale up in the Wintel world. People just are not clamouring for Windows like they were in the late 1990s when Microsoft was the only game in town and to think that Intel will somehow save Microsoft is not paying attention (in the same way that Windows 8 would help shore up PC desktop/notebook sales). The only way that x86 can catch up to ARM in mobile is if there is a demand for it to drive investment into it, or if the ARM world suddenly decides to stop and let Microsoft and Intel catch up. I also don't think many in the industry are stupid enough to rest on their laurels when they have a good thing going.

Also, you'd think that Microsoft would have been able to leverage existing ARM capabilities, since x86 isn't up to par, and put out a competitive ARM-based product. Microsoft clearly tried, and was forced to take a $900 million dollar quarterly write down.

There is also a HUGE amount of sunk cost people have put forward into non-MS/x86 platforms and there's no compelling reason on the horizon to see that changing anytime soon. On the other side, it's not hard to see x86 OEM manufacturers seeing lacklustre sales and decide to take a pass or severely curtail any production.

Demand just isn't there for these devices. Even sales of non-RT Windows tablets are craptastic. Apple sells tens of millions of units per quarter. Microsoft is lucky to sell a few million in the same period. And this is the premium end. At the low-end, Android will take away Windows-based unit sales there too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxSt View Post
Well, TDP on today's CPUs are much less than 600W...

Also:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/23/45...tially-fanless
Let's just say they're operating at half the wattage. You still have storage, RAM, and various other sundries (screens, transmitters and receivers). You do realize that your average iPad has about a 25Wh battery and a operating period of 10 hours. A PC in tablet form would not last long at all, and apparently the Surface Pro lasts about four hours on a full charge.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 12:39 AM   #75
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If people we scrambling for Windows on tablets, people would be buying them. Doesn't really matter with regards to hardware. Any advances that Microsoft and it's OEMs make with regards to speed and performance will more than likely be matched by the ARM world, and the ARM world can more easily add functionality with greater hardware improvements closing whatever gap you think Microsoft currently enjoys. Microsoft may have greater functionality, but people don't care in the mobile space. Again, if consumers want Windows, they'd be buying Surface RT and Surface Pro irregardless of hardware which illustrates how weak the argument is that people want Windows; to blame poor hardware is a convenient excuse to try and keep morale up in the Wintel world. People just are not clamouring for Windows like they were in the late 1990s when Microsoft was the only game in town and to think that Intel will somehow save Microsoft is not paying attention (in the same way that Windows 8 would help shore up PC desktop/notebook sales). The only way that x86 can catch up to ARM in mobile is if there is a demand for it to drive investment into it, or if the ARM world suddenly decides to stop and let Microsoft and Intel catch up. I also don't think many in the industry are stupid enough to rest on their laurels when they have a good thing going.

Also, you'd think that Microsoft would have been able to leverage existing ARM capabilities, since x86 isn't up to par, and put out a competitive ARM-based product. Microsoft clearly tried, and was forced to take a $900 million dollar quarterly write down.

There is also a HUGE amount of sunk cost people have put forward into non-MS/x86 platforms and there's no compelling reason on the horizon to see that changing anytime soon. On the other side, it's not hard to see x86 OEM manufacturers seeing lacklustre sales and decide to take a pass or severely curtail any production.

Demand just isn't there for these devices. Even sales of non-RT Windows tablets are craptastic. Apple sells tens of millions of units per quarter. Microsoft is lucky to sell a few million in the same period. And this is the premium end. At the low-end, Android will take away Windows-based unit sales there too.




Let's just say they're operating at half the wattage. You still have storage, RAM, and various other sundries (screens, transmitters and receivers). You do realize that your average iPad has about a 25Wh battery and a operating period of 10 hours. A PC in tablet form would not last long at all, and apparently the Surface Pro lasts about four hours on a full charge.
So MS going from 0% to 7% market share means no one is buying them?
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 01:48 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
If people we scrambling for Windows on tablets, people would be buying them. Doesn't really matter with regards to hardware. Any advances that Microsoft and it's OEMs make with regards to speed and performance will more than likely be matched by the ARM world, and the ARM world can more easily add functionality with greater hardware improvements closing whatever gap you think Microsoft currently enjoys. Microsoft may have greater functionality, but people don't care in the mobile space. Again, if consumers want Windows, they'd be buying Surface RT and Surface Pro irregardless of hardware which illustrates how weak the argument is that people want Windows; to blame poor hardware is a convenient excuse to try and keep morale up in the Wintel world. People just are not clamouring for Windows like they were in the late 1990s when Microsoft was the only game in town and to think that Intel will somehow save Microsoft is not paying attention (in the same way that Windows 8 would help shore up PC desktop/notebook sales). The only way that x86 can catch up to ARM in mobile is if there is a demand for it to drive investment into it, or if the ARM world suddenly decides to stop and let Microsoft and Intel catch up. I also don't think many in the industry are stupid enough to rest on their laurels when they have a good thing going.

Also, you'd think that Microsoft would have been able to leverage existing ARM capabilities, since x86 isn't up to par, and put out a competitive ARM-based product. Microsoft clearly tried, and was forced to take a $900 million dollar quarterly write down.

There is also a HUGE amount of sunk cost people have put forward into non-MS/x86 platforms and there's no compelling reason on the horizon to see that changing anytime soon. On the other side, it's not hard to see x86 OEM manufacturers seeing lacklustre sales and decide to take a pass or severely curtail any production.

Demand just isn't there for these devices. Even sales of non-RT Windows tablets are craptastic. Apple sells tens of millions of units per quarter. Microsoft is lucky to sell a few million in the same period. And this is the premium end. At the low-end, Android will take away Windows-based unit sales there too.




Let's just say they're operating at half the wattage. You still have storage, RAM, and various other sundries (screens, transmitters and receivers). You do realize that your average iPad has about a 25Wh battery and a operating period of 10 hours. A PC in tablet form would not last long at all, and apparently the Surface Pro lasts about four hours on a full charge.
Intel has invested billions of dollars into mobile and it shows. By all acounts the upcoming Atom chips are quite a bit faster than anything from ARM and they're competitive on the low-power front as well. Intel has a huge process advantage over any of the companies using ARM designs and that is not changing anytime soon. There is a good chance that this will lead to some major players switching from ARM to Intel.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 05:32 AM   #77
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Full Windows has virtually unlimited functionality, much moreso than a mobile platform. Space concerns just don't make sense with how cheap memory is.
Full WindowsRT?

Your interpretation of what you are thinking you are talking about do not reach certain aspects of what bloat is about.

More lines of code = more change on errors, bloat is not a fashion statement it is a serious concern.

Counter the argument and say money does not make sense , which is somewhat unrealistic because those costs are extra instead of having people that know how to create a functional OS which you already paid for is of more importance.

Microsoft is lacking the people in management and programming to turn this around ARM platform might have been their best option to show that they can do it, yet like I said before Surface and WindowsRT are dead.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 06:48 AM   #78
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Microsoft is lacking the people in management and programming to turn this around ARM platform might have been their best option to show that they can do it, yet like I said before Surface and WindowsRT are dead.
Microsoft definitely has more of the former. They are very much like most other modern corporations where outsider mercenary types float in and believe that 'management' has actual value. The difference between making coffee or computers is irrelevant to them.

The problem is that they should be paying more attention to what people are buying, not thinking what consumers may theoretically want. All the tech pundits and Microsoft boosters laughed at the iPad when it came out telling people it wouldn't sell. That it was underpowered. It didn't have a keyboard or mouse. It didn't run Flash.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 06:55 AM   #79
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So MS going from 0% to 7% market share means no one is buying them?
Yes, because Microsoft classifies a shipped unit as a sale if it went to anyone else; and MS isn't alone. Like they did with the Xbox, a sale to Game Stop was considered a sale even though Game Stop could potentially return it. Even if it just sits on a Kmart shelf, executives will always trump the "success" of their product at the very same time people won't buy it. The same thing applied to the PS3. Sales were way lower than expected for that console for the longest time.

As for 7.0%, the only numbers I saw showed that Microsoft was #5, with 3.7% (1.8M units sold between October and end of April with only 400k being the Pro). Well behind the Amazon Kindle.

Again, people said "wait for Microsoft and they'll obliterate everyone else." Now, they're blaming Intel's lack of low-power for Windows' failure.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 08:43 AM   #80
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Yes, because Microsoft classifies a shipped unit as a sale if it went to anyone else; and MS isn't alone. Like they did with the Xbox, a sale to Game Stop was considered a sale even though Game Stop could potentially return it. Even if it just sits on a Kmart shelf, executives will always trump the "success" of their product at the very same time people won't buy it. The same thing applied to the PS3. Sales were way lower than expected for that console for the longest time.

As for 7.0%, the only numbers I saw showed that Microsoft was #5, with 3.7% (1.8M units sold between October and end of April with only 400k being the Pro). Well behind the Amazon Kindle.

Again, people said "wait for Microsoft and they'll obliterate everyone else." Now, they're blaming Intel's lack of low-power for Windows' failure.
You have confused market share with shipments.



Hopefully you didn't just gloss over this when it was posted earlier in the thread.

edit: the other interesting thing here is that Android is almost as parity with iPad now.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 03:20 PM   #81
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hmm

Quote:

“Windows RT is designed to give Intel something to think about in terms of
their power efficiency and performance at that lower power level,” says
Moorhead. “In essence, to keep them a little bit honest. I did see a remarkable
improvement in Intel’s low-power silicon as soon as Windows RT and [Microsoft’s]
support for the ARM architecture was announced.”


Funny how that happened—and how it’s continuing to happen, in the form of
Intel’s upcoming “Silvermont” Atom architecture as well as its
recently released Haswell processor, both of which emphasize power
efficiency. AMD is sharpening its mobile focus, too.


Yes, we’re nearing the point where hybrids may quench your thirst for tablets—and
it wouldn’t have happened quite so quickly without Windows RT.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/20434...ing-sales.html
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 03:28 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysian View Post
You have confused market share with shipments.



Hopefully you didn't just gloss over this when it was posted earlier in the thread.

edit: the other interesting thing here is that Android is almost as parity with iPad now.
Again, the numbers I've seen are much less subjective than "marketshare"; for example, does your Android entry up there include Amazon Kindle and the B&N Nook? Should it be included? What happens when they're pulled out (aside from the obvious fact there would be more lines in the table). Numbers of units sold (1.8M between October and beginning of May) is the benchmark that should be used because you can have all the marketshare you want with nothing for revenues. *cough* Android *cough*.

As the topic of Android, it's all crap tablets primarily in the Third World. There are actual Android "tablets" for sale in China running 1.6. This basically reaffirms that people just don't care about Windows. Microsoft doesn't want to cut their licensing revenues in order for Windows to be competitive. How many Android tablets do you see in your neck of the woods?

There is no pent-up demand for Windows on tablets, nor will there be. Unless MS gets aggressive on pricing and praying that Android and Apple don't take advantage to x86 gains people think Intel will make vis-a-vis ARM. After all, OSX is essentially on both ARM and x86 concurrently now.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 03:29 PM   #83
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Again, the numbers I've seen are much less subjective than "marketshare"; for example, does your Android entry up there include Amazon Kindle and the B&N Nook? Should it be included? What happens when they're pulled out (aside from the obvious fact there would be more lines in the table). Numbers of units sold (1.8M between October and beginning of May) is the benchmark that should be used because you can have all the marketshare you want with nothing for revenues. *cough* Android *cough*.

As the topic of Android, it's all crap tablets primarily in the Third World. There are actual Android "tablets" for sale in China running 1.6. This basically reaffirms that people just don't care about Windows. Microsoft doesn't want to cut their licensing revenues in order for Windows to be competitive. How many Android tablets do you see in your neck of the woods?

There is no pent-up demand for Windows on tablets, nor will there be. Unless MS gets aggressive on pricing and praying that Android and Apple don't take advantage to x86 gains people think Intel will make vis-a-vis ARM. After all, OSX is essentially on both ARM and x86 concurrently now.
Prove it. You have yet to back up any claim you make. You're much better at P&R than you are smartphones.

Your 1.6 garbage is quite easy to counter.

http://developer.android.com/about/d...rds/index.html

1.6 counts for 0.1% of all Android versions.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 04:22 PM   #84
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You have confused market share with shipments.



Hopefully you didn't just gloss over this when it was posted earlier in the thread.

edit: the other interesting thing here is that Android is almost as parity with iPad now.
Again, the numbers I've seen are much less subjective than "marketshare"; for example, does your Android entry up there include Amazon Kindle and the B&N Nook? Should it be included?

Let's have battling "marketshare" shall we?

From IDC

I was mistaken when I said I saw MS had 3.7%. Actually, according to these people Microsoft only had 1.8% of "marketshare". Here's the first major problem with any marketshare figures. How do they get Amazon Kindle sales since Amazon doesn't release numbers of units sold. Do they look at TIs OMAP and semiconductor sales since the Kindle is basically 99% TI tech? That just shows how many parts were made, not how many units were built or even shipped.

As the topic of Android, it's all crap tablets primarily in the Third World. There are actual Android "tablets" for sale in China running 1.6 and the lovely piece of work that pax bought a couple years ago. They're certainly not selling in North America since the iPad has 84% of all web traffic for tablets; what are they using their tablets for? Alarm clocks? You'd think that one of the primary functions of a tablet device is web access of some sort. Microsoft doesn't want to cut their licensing revenues in order for Windows to be competitive; it can't and it would have to in order to compete with Android. Since everyone and their dog in North America has at least a smart phone if not a tablet, there really is no real growth market anymore and Windows just isn't compelling to draw people away from other alternatives.

Numbers of units sold/shipped (1.8M between October and beginning of May) should be the benchmark since a manufacturer can have all the marketshare you want with nothing for revenues. *cough* Android *cough*. Also because sales involve money, it illustrates the pricing expectations of the consumers buying these things.

There is no pent-up widesreapd demand for Windows on tablets, nor will there be. The PC did force a lot of people to arrange their digital lives because there were no other alternatives at the time. Now that there are, people are just drifting away from the desktop and notebook. It's no longer the digital centre of people's lives. The market is basically fragmenting along lines of what people expect and desire from their devices. People realize they just don't need the hassle and the bother of a full desktop/notebook.

Even if MS got aggressive on pricing they still have to pray that Android and Apple don't take advantage to x86 gains people think Intel will make vis-a-vis ARM (let's just pretend that it will happen). After all, OSX is essentially on both ARM and x86 concurrently now so any advantage that Microsoft could theoretically get would be less than short-lived.


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Originally Posted by Elysian View Post
Prove it. You have yet to back up any claim you make. You're much better at P&R than you are smartphones.

Your 1.6 garbage is quite easy to counter.

http://developer.android.com/about/d...rds/index.html

1.6 counts for 0.1% of all Android versions.
Yes, but that number only included devices that connect to Google Play. Pay attention to the shift in how they counted their numbers at this years Google IO.

Each snapshot of data represents all the devices that visited the Google Play Store in the prior 14 days.


The Chinese are making them, they're all over the place there. Google can't track those numbers if they wanted to. Remember, Android is "open". Also, there's something like five or six major alternatives to Google Play in China.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 08:30 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by bill dennison View Post

I don't agree with his conclusion. From the same article:

Quote:
Chip development takes years, and Intel was no doubt dreamed up Clover Trail shortly after it became apparent that tablets were here to stay, but the Windows RT stick provided a harsh counterpoint to the Windows 8 carrot. Intel had two years to bolster its power efficiency in the wake of Windows RT's unveiling.
Intel would have been just as keyed in on mobile if RT had never come out. Their initial target was cell-phones, the tablet chips are just a natural expansion of the process.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 06:20 AM   #86
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The problem is that they should be paying more attention to what people are buying, not thinking what consumers may theoretically want.
Look what people are already buying, and just copy? What kind of winning strategy is that? Where would Apple be with your brilliant strategy?

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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
All the tech pundits and Microsoft boosters laughed at the iPad when it came out telling people it wouldn't sell. That it was underpowered. It didn't have a keyboard or mouse.
And now you're laughing at the idea that Intel+Microsoft could make a nice tablet PC one day. You think it wouldn't sell.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 07:46 AM   #87
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Look what people are already buying, and just copy? What kind of winning strategy is that? Where would Apple be with your brilliant strategy?



And now you're laughing at the idea that Intel+Microsoft could make a nice tablet PC one day. You think it wouldn't sell.
Apple is reaping the benefits of having a great tablet and being very early with it. Microsoft innovations or lack of is what makes them look like they are always behind, as in copying other peoples successes.

I thought AMD is going to have basically a X86 chip with arm, would that be viable for RT? In other words RT would transfer to Windows while the base of applications would still work until X86 takes over. Just a thought.

What makes Arm arch so much more power saving over x86? Is it possible x86 processors will be just as efficient? More efficient? in the future?
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 08:48 AM   #88
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Look what people are already buying, and just copy? What kind of winning strategy is that? Where would Apple be with your brilliant strategy?
Fine line, that is true.

But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that consumers who ignored the Zune and it's interface will not be flocking to it no matter how many times Microsoft beats you over the head with it.

It's like they can't learn from it. The interface failed to take hold in the tablet and phone space so they force it upon desktop users.

Not exactly a brilliant strategy and taking cost recovery to new extremes.


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And now you're laughing at the idea that Intel+Microsoft could make a nice tablet PC one day. You think it wouldn't sell.
Love how you dropped the whole "Flash" part. Quite indicative.

Maybe people will clamour for a Windows tablet to get "the full Web experience" since Windows will allow Flash.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 10:33 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by noko View Post
Apple is reaping the benefits of having a great tablet and being very early with it. Microsoft innovations or lack of is what makes them look like they are always behind, as in copying other peoples successes.

I thought AMD is going to have basically a X86 chip with arm, would that be viable for RT? In other words RT would transfer to Windows while the base of applications would still work until X86 takes over. Just a thought.

What makes Arm arch so much more power saving over x86? Is it possible x86 processors will be just as efficient? More efficient? in the future?
You're going to see x86 chips from Intel this fall that are just as efficient as ARM chips.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 11:18 AM   #90
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Ok, I get it, HAL. You think Apple stuff is so perfect, it can't be improved, so Microsoft shouldn't even try to innovate, and them trying to predict "what consumers may theoretically want in the future" is the worst. They should just follows Apple footsteps, it's the only road to success. Right?
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