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Old Jul 23, 2013, 09:19 AM   #31
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HAL10000
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Originally Posted by Elysian View Post
It won't. Windows 8 is where the convergence occurs, and it will be on Intel based tablets, not ARM.
If Intel can manage to make a proper mobile product, maybe. But that would also require the ARM world to stop and let Intel catch up. It also assumes Google has any interest of Android on x86. Right now, what advantage does switching over to Intel offer? Decreased battery life and hotter handsets? Yet *more* fragmentation? Bit order isn't even the same on ARM as x86.

But each time Intel strays from x86, they get pounded. i860. Itanium. Their last couple mobile space initiatives have fallen upon deaf ears. Intel is as dependent now on the PC/desktop as it ever was.

People are learning there's more to life than Windows and that you can easily live without it. Live better, actually.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 11:31 AM   #32
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People are learning there's more to life than Windows and that you can easily live without it. Live better, actually.
You keep saying that, then completely ignore Max's post. When you inject facts in the conversation they completely conflict with your sound blurb.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 12:29 PM   #33
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If Intel can manage to make a proper mobile product, maybe. But that would also require the ARM world to stop and let Intel catch up. It also assumes Google has any interest of Android on x86. Right now, what advantage does switching over to Intel offer? Decreased battery life and hotter handsets? Yet *more* fragmentation? Bit order isn't even the same on ARM as x86.

But each time Intel strays from x86, they get pounded. i860. Itanium. Their last couple mobile space initiatives have fallen upon deaf ears. Intel is as dependent now on the PC/desktop as it ever was.

People are learning there's more to life than Windows and that you can easily live without it. Live better, actually.
I don't remember where... Tomshardware or Ars, but the forthcoming Intel Atom processor aimed at tablets and phones, outperformed the Snapdragon 800 by something like 15%.


Edit: It's actually 30% faster with the Atom processor throttled back by 50%. http://www.extremetech.com/computing...-arm-soc-by-30
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 12:47 PM   #34
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Yea but at what type of power consumption is the real question. It's not just about performance, battery life is just as important on mobile devices.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 01:11 PM   #35
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You keep saying that, then completely ignore Max's post. When you inject facts in the conversation they completely conflict with your sound blurb.
People can either buy PCs, phones, tablets or a mix. Notice where the sales growth is? (And they're not buying Surface or Surface RT; if they were, MS wouldn't have to write down $900 million) That's why Windows is falling into irrelevance and why Microsoft has been desperate to try and become a player in the mobile market. The watershed moment for Microsoft has passed. People are voting with their wallets, and they're not voting for Microsoft.

I hate it when people need to be spoonfed facts when all they have to do is look around. Just look at sale numbers. Even Android tablets outsell Windows ones.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 02:49 PM   #36
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People can either buy PCs, phones, tablets or a mix. Notice where the sales growth is? (And they're not buying Surface or Surface RT; if they were, MS wouldn't have to write down $900 million) That's why Windows is falling into irrelevance and why Microsoft has been desperate to try and become a player in the mobile market. The watershed moment for Microsoft has passed. People are voting with their wallets, and they're not voting for Microsoft.

I hate it when people need to be spoonfed facts when all they have to do is look around. Just look at sale numbers. Even Android tablets outsell Windows ones.

How is a company who posted a 5 billion dollar profit (including that 900 million write down) in a single fiscal quarter "falling into irrelevance"? That's just ignorant.

You're comparing a 30 year old market with an, arguably, 6 year old market. The 6 year old market hasn't reached global saturation yet (some reports say it's closed to saturated in North America). You're misinterpreting what the "people are voting" for. They're buying that new Android/iOS device because they already have a desktop (probably bought 2 years or more ago). The tablet isn't replacing the desktop, it's in addition to it. The consumer is buying what they don't have already.

So why not buy the Windows tablet? As we discussed, the background and hardware isn't there for MSFT. Add to the fact, that word of mouth is the most powerful advertising you can have. At this stage, everyone has a friend/acquaintance or family member who has an iPad or Android device of some kind. They'll more likely get the device if they see a friend of whoever have one as well. Microsoft won't be able to make ins on that market until the Intel hardware pushes out more and people see the software cost savings during these retail drive times for back to school, or dads and grads, moms day, etc.

Here's the important bits from MSFT's reports last week. Lot of growth numbers for a company "falling into irrelevance".


Microsoft Business Division revenue grew 14% for the fourth quarter and 3% for the full year. Adjusting for the recognition of previously deferred revenue related to the Office Upgrade Offer, Microsoft Business Division non-GAAP revenue increased 2% for the fourth quarter. Office 365 is now on a $1.5 billion annual revenue run rate.

Server & Tools revenue grew 9% for the fourth quarter and 9% for the full year, driven by double-digit percentage revenue growth in SQL Server and System Center.

Windows Division revenue grew 6% for the fourth quarter and 5% for the full year. Excluding the impact of the prior year Windows Upgrade Offer revenue deferral, Windows Division non-GAAP revenue decreased 6% for the fourth quarter and 1% for the full year. In June, Microsoft released the public preview of Windows 8.1 which will be made available to OEMs in August.

Online Services Division revenue grew 9% for the fourth quarter and 12% for the full year, driven by an increase in revenue per search and volume. Bing organic U.S. search market share was 17.9% for the month of June 2013, up 230 basis points from the prior year period.

Entertainment and Devices Division grew 8% for the fourth quarter and 6% for the full year. During the quarter, transactional revenue within Xbox LIVE grew nearly 20%, and we unveiled our next-generation gaming and entertainment console, Xbox One.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 03:32 PM   #37
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How is a company who posted a 5 billion dollar profit (including that 900 million write down) in a single fiscal quarter "falling into irrelevance"? That's just ignorant.

You're comparing a 30 year old market with an, arguably, 6 year old market. The 6 year old market hasn't reached global saturation yet (some reports say it's closed to saturated in North America). You're misinterpreting what the "people are voting" for. They're buying that new Android/iOS device because they already have a desktop (probably bought 2 years or more ago). The tablet isn't replacing the desktop, it's in addition to it. The consumer is buying what they don't have already.

So why not buy the Windows tablet? As we discussed, the background and hardware isn't there for MSFT. Add to the fact, that word of mouth is the most powerful advertising you can have. At this stage, everyone has a friend/acquaintance or family member who has an iPad or Android device of some kind. They'll more likely get the device if they see a friend of whoever have one as well. Microsoft won't be able to make ins on that market until the Intel hardware pushes out more and people see the software cost savings during these retail drive times for back to school, or dads and grads, moms day, etc.

Here's the important bits from MSFT's reports last week. Lot of growth numbers for a company "falling into irrelevance".


Microsoft Business Division revenue grew 14% for the fourth quarter and 3% for the full year. Adjusting for the recognition of previously deferred revenue related to the Office Upgrade Offer, Microsoft Business Division non-GAAP revenue increased 2% for the fourth quarter. Office 365 is now on a $1.5 billion annual revenue run rate.

Server & Tools revenue grew 9% for the fourth quarter and 9% for the full year, driven by double-digit percentage revenue growth in SQL Server and System Center.

Windows Division revenue grew 6% for the fourth quarter and 5% for the full year. Excluding the impact of the prior year Windows Upgrade Offer revenue deferral, Windows Division non-GAAP revenue decreased 6% for the fourth quarter and 1% for the full year. In June, Microsoft released the public preview of Windows 8.1 which will be made available to OEMs in August.

Online Services Division revenue grew 9% for the fourth quarter and 12% for the full year, driven by an increase in revenue per search and volume. Bing organic U.S. search market share was 17.9% for the month of June 2013, up 230 basis points from the prior year period.

Entertainment and Devices Division grew 8% for the fourth quarter and 6% for the full year. During the quarter, transactional revenue within Xbox LIVE grew nearly 20%, and we unveiled our next-generation gaming and entertainment console, Xbox One.
You can distort revenue numbers rather easily, actually. Mobile going forward is where it's going to be. Everyone knows this, including Microsoft. Unfortunately for Microsoft, they're not even a bit player in that space, hence growing irrelevance as the dominance of the PC/desktop wanes. Microsoft tried throwing money at this problem, and it didn't work.

There just isn't the pressure for people to upgrade their desktops anymore even compared to five years ago. The performance gains are minimal and most people aren't married to their computers like people who post on tech forums all day. Same thing happens to pretty much every tech market.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 03:42 PM   #38
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Tried?!?!? Um hasn't MS managed to gain a 3rd place position with what? 2 generations of proper touch phones and is poised to bridge the Desktop, Tablet and Phone space in a way neither of the two competitors ahead of them are ready for... yup clearly throwing money at this isn't working.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 05:54 PM   #39
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Tried?!?!? Um hasn't MS managed to gain a 3rd place position with what? 2 generations of proper touch phones and is poised to bridge the Desktop, Tablet and Phone space in a way neither of the two competitors ahead of them are ready for... yup clearly throwing money at this isn't working.
Nice try. They sold ONLY 1.5 million Surface tablets since it's introduction. In fact, for 2012, Apple sold 1.7 million tablets per week. What's scarier, is that is the number Microsoft sold probably doesn't included people who returned them.

In the last quarter of 2012, Apple had sold 75 million devices that quarter. How many Windows 8 mobile devices did Microsoft ship? Microsoft was likely dwarfed by the Amazon Kindle is my guess but unfortunately Amazon never discusses units sold.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...edictions.html

Microsoft is a non-player and nothing on the horizon is seemingly offering any improvement.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 07:13 PM   #40
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Oh whoops, I got caught up typing about the over all picture. I'd have to agree when it's just about Surface.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 11:21 PM   #41
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why buy ms pro ms rt, when you can get samsung sony, asus, acer etc
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 01:35 AM   #42
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Nice try. They sold ONLY 1.5 million Surface tablets since it's introduction. In fact, for 2012, Apple sold 1.7 million tablets per week. What's scarier, is that is the number Microsoft sold probably doesn't included people who returned them.

In the last quarter of 2012, Apple had sold 75 million devices that quarter. How many Windows 8 mobile devices did Microsoft ship? Microsoft was likely dwarfed by the Amazon Kindle is my guess but unfortunately Amazon never discusses units sold.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...edictions.html

Microsoft is a non-player and nothing on the horizon is seemingly offering any improvement.
There are many things at play. A barebones consumption devices v/s a do-everything device is an apples to oranges comparison.

The tablet market-share did grow from nothing to 7.4% in Q1.



http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/25/str...5-at-09-35-47/

Overall Microsoft has sold over 100 million Windows 8 licenses since October. I never liked the RT strategy, but they are still making a LOT of money. Their YOY numbers for Q4 indicates as much, healthy, even with an almost $1 billion charge, given the market conditions.

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Old Jul 24, 2013, 02:38 AM   #43
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Yea but at what type of power consumption is the real question. It's not just about performance, battery life is just as important on mobile devices.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7117/h...-investigation

From the tests, for web-browsing over wifi, a Haswell Mid 2013 Macbook Air gets the same battery life as an iPad 4 (adjusted for battery capacity and displays). Video decoding is a different story, with the iPad 4 being much better. However the near future looks clear: Intel will have (or already has) chips that get equivalent battery life for the same speed, but have the advantage of being able to be much faster when required. How this will affect tablet, desktop and mobile over the next 5 years though is anyone's guess though.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 03:00 AM   #44
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why buy ms pro ms rt, when you can get samsung sony, asus, acer etc
If I remember correctly, a big part of MS's idea with the Surface tablets was to try and set a standard that the 3rd parties would have to match or best.

That said, I went the Asus route(Vivo Tab RT)
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 04:39 AM   #45
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Currently the tablet market is dominated by mobile OSes.

But in the long term, desktop OSes will take over tablets.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 06:26 AM   #46
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How is a company who posted a 5 billion dollar profit (including that 900 million write down) in a single fiscal quarter "falling into irrelevance"? That's just ignorant.

You're comparing a 30 year old market with an, arguably, 6 year old market. The 6 year old market hasn't reached global saturation yet (some reports say it's closed to saturated in North America). You're misinterpreting what the "people are voting" for. They're buying that new Android/iOS device because they already have a desktop (probably bought 2 years or more ago). The tablet isn't replacing the desktop, it's in addition to it. The consumer is buying what they don't have already.

So why not buy the Windows tablet? As we discussed, the background and hardware isn't there for MSFT. Add to the fact, that word of mouth is the most powerful advertising you can have. At this stage, everyone has a friend/acquaintance or family member who has an iPad or Android device of some kind. They'll more likely get the device if they see a friend of whoever have one as well. Microsoft won't be able to make ins on that market until the Intel hardware pushes out more and people see the software cost savings during these retail drive times for back to school, or dads and grads, moms day, etc.

Here's the important bits from MSFT's reports last week. Lot of growth numbers for a company "falling into irrelevance".


Microsoft Business Division revenue grew 14% for the fourth quarter and 3% for the full year. Adjusting for the recognition of previously deferred revenue related to the Office Upgrade Offer, Microsoft Business Division non-GAAP revenue increased 2% for the fourth quarter. Office 365 is now on a $1.5 billion annual revenue run rate.

Server & Tools revenue grew 9% for the fourth quarter and 9% for the full year, driven by double-digit percentage revenue growth in SQL Server and System Center.

Windows Division revenue grew 6% for the fourth quarter and 5% for the full year. Excluding the impact of the prior year Windows Upgrade Offer revenue deferral, Windows Division non-GAAP revenue decreased 6% for the fourth quarter and 1% for the full year. In June, Microsoft released the public preview of Windows 8.1 which will be made available to OEMs in August.

Online Services Division revenue grew 9% for the fourth quarter and 12% for the full year, driven by an increase in revenue per search and volume. Bing organic U.S. search market share was 17.9% for the month of June 2013, up 230 basis points from the prior year period.

Entertainment and Devices Division grew 8% for the fourth quarter and 6% for the full year. During the quarter, transactional revenue within Xbox LIVE grew nearly 20%, and we unveiled our next-generation gaming and entertainment console, Xbox One.

Yep and where MS makes money they have a monopoly position. Where the growth numbers are the irrelevence starts. If your business segments that are small are growing is not bad but when it is such a small amount of what your business is at it says enough doesn't it?

MS is SOL when the PC market is declining and reports already stated that MS Windows 8 is not helping it to bounce back.

MS is screwed badly even. You can see them grapsing at straws with their DX11.2 comment (Windows 8 only) and yes it didn't matter coz there no games for DX11.2.

When you launch an OS which supposedly is competing on ARM devices and then you decide to have other hardware companies make you hardware and get others in on it and sell the product yourself when your other friendly companies (which support your OS on their device) get shafted for OEM costs of the OS. Trying to make a market segment 101 prolly states that you should not do this ever.

So when MS is being monopoly MS it fails badly the only way if they subsidize their failed product.

When your main market is "collapsing" and your new market is the place you take a dump it is not going anywhere.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 08:57 AM   #47
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You guys only look at this as PC market vs tablet market as it exists right now.

But with 4.5W Haswell chips on the horizon, we might as well start seeing nice tablets, which are also PCs.

Phone OSes on tablets is a dirty hack, while using desktop OSes on tablets is limited by hardware. But hardware problems can and will be solved, it's inevitable, only a matter of time. In 1-2 years Intel will be pushing very competitive chips, and desktop OSes on tablets will be very competitive against dirty hacks (phone OSes).

In the long run, I would bet on tablets which are small PCs.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 09:22 AM   #48
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Yep and where MS makes money they have a monopoly position. Where the growth numbers are the irrelevence starts. If your business segments that are small are growing is not bad but when it is such a small amount of what your business is at it says enough doesn't it?

MS is SOL when the PC market is declining and reports already stated that MS Windows 8 is not helping it to bounce back.

MS is screwed badly even. You can see them grapsing at straws with their DX11.2 comment (Windows 8 only) and yes it didn't matter coz there no games for DX11.2.

When you launch an OS which supposedly is competing on ARM devices and then you decide to have other hardware companies make you hardware and get others in on it and sell the product yourself when your other friendly companies (which support your OS on their device) get shafted for OEM costs of the OS. Trying to make a market segment 101 prolly states that you should not do this ever.

So when MS is being monopoly MS it fails badly the only way if they subsidize their failed product.

When your main market is "collapsing" and your new market is the place you take a dump it is not going anywhere.
What actual numbers are you using to support your hypothesis?

Google had a "bad" quarter and yet it dominates the smartphone and tablet markets with it's OS.

Apple had a "bad" quarter and yet it is doing pretty decent overall.

Both have reached somewhat of a saturation level for mid/high end devices.

Microsoft has a "bad" quarter and the sky is falling?



Yes, they have made mis-steps and a discussion can easily be had about the pro's and con's there (without hysterical hyperbole about the start-menu).

But suggesting the entire company is about to collapse after the quarter and the year they have had is a bit ridiculous.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 09:50 AM   #49
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What actual numbers are you using to support your hypothesis?

Google had a "bad" quarter and yet it dominates the smartphone and tablet markets with it's OS.

Apple had a "bad" quarter and yet it is doing pretty decent overall.

Both have reached somewhat of a saturation level for mid/high end devices.

Microsoft has a "bad" quarter and the sky is falling?



Yes, they have made mis-steps and a discussion can easily be had about the pro's and con's there (without hysterical hyperbole about the start-menu).

But suggesting the entire company is about to collapse after the quarter and the year they have had is a bit ridiculous.
MS's profit is not coming from the consumer end, especially mobile.

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Originally Posted by MaxSt View Post
Currently the tablet market is dominated by mobile OSes.

But in the long term, desktop OSes will take over tablets.
It's time to stop posting...
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 10:13 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
MS's profit is not coming from the consumer end, especially mobile.
Microsoft has it's fingers in far more things, and their consumer side is doing fine. The big money pit remains online but otherwise they are making money in most other departments. Remember, they had $5 billion in profit even with an almost $1 billion charge. YOY, they improved a fair bit.

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It's time to stop posting...
It's the logical route. Why should I have 3 different ecosystems/devices, when I can have a scalable OS across multiple devices and can maintain some semblance of consistency without having to rely exclusively on apps?
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 11:10 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Sazar View Post
Microsoft has it's fingers in far more things, and their consumer side is doing fine. The big money pit remains online but otherwise they are making money in most other departments. Remember, they had $5 billion in profit even with an almost $1 billion charge. YOY, they improved a fair bit.
But a lot of these fingers exist only because they had leverage with their monopoly position on desktop operating systems. For example, Microsoft heavily subsidized the money-losing XBox360.

That's why Microsoft has been scrambling to remain relevant. The paradigm shift in computing is a genuine threat to them.

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It's the logical route. Why should I have 3 different ecosystems/devices, when I can have a scalable OS across multiple devices and can maintain some semblance of consistency without having to rely exclusively on apps?
Windows "everywhere" has been touted for ages and yet no one really wants it. Windows CE devices didn't go anywhere, WinMo 5 only made inroads because the only other major operators were Nokia and Motorola. The Xbox360 is the penultimate example of throwing money at a problem. Since the iPhone, WinMo and their mobile offerings have fallen flat.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 11:29 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
Windows "everywhere" has been touted for ages and yet no one really wants it. Windows CE devices didn't go anywhere, WinMo 5 only made inroads because the only other major operators were Nokia and Motorola. The Xbox360 is the penultimate example of throwing money at a problem. Since the iPhone, WinMo and their mobile offerings have fallen flat.
Your problem is you only look at the past, and assume it will be that way forever. The problem with running full-scale Windows or Ubuntu on tablets lies only in hardware, and that hardware problem can and will be solved.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 11:52 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Trunks0 View Post
Yea but at what type of power consumption is the real question. It's not just about performance, battery life is just as important on mobile devices.
The following quote is the best response:

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Originally Posted by fryjs View Post
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7117/h...-investigation

From the tests, for web-browsing over wifi, a Haswell Mid 2013 Macbook Air gets the same battery life as an iPad 4 (adjusted for battery capacity and displays). Video decoding is a different story, with the iPad 4 being much better. However the near future looks clear: Intel will have (or already has) chips that get equivalent battery life for the same speed, but have the advantage of being able to be much faster when required. How this will affect tablet, desktop and mobile over the next 5 years though is anyone's guess though.
---------------------

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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
You can distort revenue numbers rather easily, actually. Mobile going forward is where it's going to be. Everyone knows this, including Microsoft. Unfortunately for Microsoft, they're not even a bit player in that space, hence growing irrelevance as the dominance of the PC/desktop wanes. Microsoft tried throwing money at this problem, and it didn't work.

There just isn't the pressure for people to upgrade their desktops anymore even compared to five years ago. The performance gains are minimal and most people aren't married to their computers like people who post on tech forums all day. Same thing happens to pretty much every tech market.
What part of the revenue numbers are distorted?

As it stands now, the mobile (phone and tablet) movement is largely media consumption devices. They largely still need a PC to be completely managed. As long as they are media consumption devices, the future that you see HAL1000 will never exist. IMO, that will only change when the OSes merge, a la Windows 8 or Ubuntu are attempting. The fact that Google took the time to have an x86 version of Android, should lead credence to this.

The mobile movement, as it is today, has just begun impacting the enterprise sector about 2 years ago or so. These Android/iOS devices are managed via software that runs on top of Windows Server.



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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
Nice try. They sold ONLY 1.5 million Surface tablets since it's introduction. In fact, for 2012, Apple sold 1.7 million tablets per week. What's scarier, is that is the number Microsoft sold probably doesn't included people who returned them.

In the last quarter of 2012, Apple had sold 75 million devices that quarter. How many Windows 8 mobile devices did Microsoft ship? Microsoft was likely dwarfed by the Amazon Kindle is my guess but unfortunately Amazon never discusses units sold.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...edictions.html

Microsoft is a non-player and nothing on the horizon is seemingly offering any improvement.
This is a fair comparison of the current market but your "nothing on the horizon" is way off base with what Intel has in the pipeline. A good preview is the Haswell battery uptick on the MacBook Air.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxSt View Post
Currently the tablet market is dominated by mobile OSes.

But in the long term, desktop OSes will take over tablets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
MS's profit is not coming from the consumer end, especially mobile.

It's time to stop posting...
MS is profiting from the consumer end, just not as largely as the enterprise end.

IMO, x86 OSes will recover and overtake ARM based ones. With the battery improvements of Haswell and the *potential* of the Atom processor (30% faster then the fastest ARM with the x86 scaled back 50%) along with that x86 systems can run ARM apps (Bluestacks). Intel/MSFT have a good shot at swinging this around over the next year.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 01:31 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
But a lot of these fingers exist only because they had leverage with their monopoly position on desktop operating systems. For example, Microsoft heavily subsidized the money-losing XBox360.
They may have subsidized it to start with, but it's netted them almost $2 billion in profits in the past 8 or 9 quarters if you go through their financials.

Quote:
That's why Microsoft has been scrambling to remain relevant. The paradigm shift in computing is a genuine threat to them.
Market's change. You have to adapt to remain relevant. Microsoft has evolved, much like other companies out there. Monolithic entities in the tech industry usually don't survive long.

But as I pointed out, they had a pretty solid quarter, all things considered, and YOY it looks great, especially when you compare the key markers against their competitors.

Quote:
Windows "everywhere" has been touted for ages and yet no one really wants it. Windows CE devices didn't go anywhere, WinMo 5 only made inroads because the only other major operators were Nokia and Motorola. The Xbox360 is the penultimate example of throwing money at a problem. Since the iPhone, WinMo and their mobile offerings have fallen flat.
How do you know no one really wants it?

CE and others are a completely different cup of tea. Look at the products today. I still have an iPhone. It is limited beyond belief. WP8 is the fastest growing product on the market in terms of YOY growth percentages.

A single ecosystem, or a couple of them that communicate freely, that would be amazing. The openness of Android, the app quality of iOS, the broad compatibility of Windows. That would be awesome.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 02:03 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Sazar View Post
Microsoft has it's fingers in far more things, and their consumer side is doing fine. The big money pit remains online but otherwise they are making money in most other departments. Remember, they had $5 billion in profit even with an almost $1 billion charge. YOY, they improved a fair bit.



It's the logical route. Why should I have 3 different ecosystems/devices, when I can have a scalable OS across multiple devices and can maintain some semblance of consistency without having to rely exclusively on apps?
Because, frankly, the OS doesn't matter. It's the data stupid! As long as my apps and data stay in sync and are fully functional, it doesn't matter what OS I'm on. I'm using Android, iOS, OS X, and Windows (work comp) and guess what? All my data (Dropbox, Evernote, GMail, etc.) work just fine and I get stuff done. MS doesn't understand this. They think that the user as to have the same OS, or same looking OS across devices, when that's not the case. Windows 7 could have been just fine with Windows Phone 8 - only the apps and their data matter.



Note: Not calling you stupid btw, just using it as Bill Clinton expression.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 02:06 PM   #56
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How do you know no one really wants it.
Simple. No one buys the devices with it on it. It's not as if there was an absence of presence in the mobile space with Windows.

WinCE
Windows Tablet
Zune
Surface and Surface RT

Microsoft has have very *few* successes outside of markets where it couldn't leverage it's monopoly status. Even when it theoretically could, such as with successive generations of WinMo products, everyone just put out a collective "meh, not interested."
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 02:36 PM   #57
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You guys only look at this as PC market vs tablet market as it exists right now.

But with 4.5W Haswell chips on the horizon, we might as well start seeing nice tablets, which are also PCs.

Phone OSes on tablets is a dirty hack, while using desktop OSes on tablets is limited by hardware. But hardware problems can and will be solved, it's inevitable, only a matter of time. In 1-2 years Intel will be pushing very competitive chips, and desktop OSes on tablets will be very competitive against dirty hacks (phone OSes).

In the long run, I would bet on tablets which are small PCs.
In the long run, I would bet on phones which are small PCs.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 03:24 PM   #58
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Because, frankly, the OS doesn't matter. It's the data stupid!
Good, that means you could finally relax about certain "stupid" OS makers. So what if they want the same OS everywhere, it doesn't matter, right?

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In the long run, I would bet on phones which are small PCs.
It seems Ubuntu betting big money on this. They might be right.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 03:57 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
Because, frankly, the OS doesn't matter. It's the data stupid! As long as my apps and data stay in sync and are fully functional, it doesn't matter what OS I'm on. I'm using Android, iOS, OS X, and Windows (work comp) and guess what? All my data (Dropbox, Evernote, GMail, etc.) work just fine and I get stuff done. MS doesn't understand this. They think that the user as to have the same OS, or same looking OS across devices, when that's not the case. Windows 7 could have been just fine with Windows Phone 8 - only the apps and their data matter.
To an extent, I agree with you. See my other comments above.

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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
Simple. No one buys the devices with it on it. It's not as if there was an absence of presence in the mobile space with Windows.

WinCE
Windows Tablet
Zune
Surface and Surface RT

Microsoft has have very *few* successes outside of markets where it couldn't leverage it's monopoly status. Even when it theoretically could, such as with successive generations of WinMo products, everyone just put out a collective "meh, not interested."
The first few examples are of things that existed before a market was there. CE was a market leader, behind Palm, for example, and enabled things to be done that weren't possible before.

The Zune was a better device than most on the market, it's uptake was very low, however. Windows 8 has done fine, and WP8 is doing ok too.

For me, as a user of some of the products on the market, I actually do like a consistency across all my devices. The XaaS market will continue to thrive, but a consistent/converged environment has a lot of benefits. No one does that better than Microsoft right now.

This doesn't mean it is flawless, but it does address the crumbling model you are talking about.
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Old Jul 24, 2013, 04:03 PM   #60
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Microsoft has a "bad" quarter and the sky is falling?



Yes, they have made mis-steps and a discussion can easily be had about the pro's and con's there (without hysterical hyperbole about the start-menu).

But suggesting the entire company is about to collapse after the quarter and the year they have had is a bit ridiculous.
Well people want numbers ,anyone can get that everywhere. Find which OEM partners are still on board for WindowsRT , Dell is the only one.

Find out which OEM partners they had when launching WindowsRT.

Go do the math ..

Point to where I'm saying that MS is falling apart? All I'm saying is that Surface/WindowsRT is not going to work for them. And the core business of desktops is declining.

It is not about short term it is about long term , MS wanted a piece of the ARM business but shot itself in the foot with Surface. This is bad when you want to expand in a market you have no foothold in.

You can not do both and sell "your own" (MS) hardware and have companies sell your OS on their hardware and charge money for it.

If you don't see the problem here , Steve B. Didn't catch it either.
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