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Old Jul 1, 2009, 01:48 PM   #1
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Default 120hz?

I really don't get why 120HZ is a selling point. For 24p movies, it makes them look like they were shot on DV and does nothing special for 30p/60p content. Anyone else dislike the feature or is it just me?
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Old Jul 1, 2009, 02:13 PM   #2
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To me the 120hz feature should really be with gaming screens since most monitors are locked at 60~80hz but gaming pc's can easily do 100 + so it should be more necessary in gaming screens but in HDTV's not all cameras can record at a 120 fps rate. They should've waited
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Old Jul 1, 2009, 02:17 PM   #3
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3D movies using Nvidia's 3D Vision technology.
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Old Jul 1, 2009, 02:20 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Debello View Post
3D movies using Nvidia's 3D Vision technology.
downloading a few demos

EDIT: kinda weird since it wouldn't let me download by clicking on the download button, I had to right click and select save as target to download a movie, might be my browser but yeah just wanted you guys to know.
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Old Jul 1, 2009, 10:23 PM   #5
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When done properly, a 120, 96, 72, or 48Hz refresh mode should look more like the (24p source) movie was intended than 60 Hz. Unfortunately, a number of tv's have built interpolation into their multiple-of-24 mode, which creates the "DV" effect you describe. I know interpolation is defeatable or non-existent on Pioneer and Pana plasmas, don't know about the Sammy and Sony LCD/plasma panels. Pioneer elites have the added feature of being able to recover 24p material from 1080i and 480i sources (DVD, broadcast digital, broadcast HD, etc.) but you have to hand-select the proper mode to fit what you're watching.
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Old Jul 2, 2009, 12:24 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by HiThere View Post
When done properly, a 120, 96, 72, or 48Hz refresh mode should look more like the (24p source) movie was intended than 60 Hz. Unfortunately, a number of tv's have built interpolation into their multiple-of-24 mode, which creates the "DV" effect you describe. I know interpolation is defeatable or non-existent on Pioneer and Pana plasmas, don't know about the Sammy and Sony LCD/plasma panels. Pioneer elites have the added feature of being able to recover 24p material from 1080i and 480i sources (DVD, broadcast digital, broadcast HD, etc.) but you have to hand-select the proper mode to fit what you're watching.
Pioneer, late-model Panasonics, and late-model Hitachis are the only displays that show 1080p 24 material using frame duplication without interpolation at a multiple of 24 (72 for the Pioneer, 48 for Hitachi and older Panasonics, 96 for the V-series Panasonics).

I'm hanging out for the Panasonic V series here in Australia for just that reason. I hate judder, and I hate interpolation.
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Old Jul 2, 2009, 10:45 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by OzzieBloke View Post
Pioneer, late-model Panasonics, and late-model Hitachis are the only displays that show 1080p 24 material using frame duplication without interpolation at a multiple of 24 (72 for the Pioneer, 48 for Hitachi and older Panasonics, 96 for the V-series Panasonics).

I'm hanging out for the Panasonic V series here in Australia for just that reason. I hate judder, and I hate interpolation.
There are dozens of TVs do this, not just the ones you listed. In fact pretty much every 120Hz TV will display 24p at an even multiple w/out interpolation.

There are even 3-4 year old projection TVs that do it. AVS Forum has a thread listing them all.
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Old Jul 2, 2009, 10:56 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Zero View Post
I really don't get why 120HZ is a selling point. For 24p movies, it makes them look like they were shot on DV and does nothing special for 30p/60p content. Anyone else dislike the feature or is it just me?
It's been said a hundred times in here, but the weird motion you see is unrelated to 120Hz, it is motion interpolation, which is available on 60Hz TVs, and can be turned off on any TV that has it.
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Old Jul 2, 2009, 01:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by OzzieBloke View Post
Pioneer, late-model Panasonics, and late-model Hitachis are the only displays that show 1080p 24 material using frame duplication without interpolation at a multiple of 24 (72 for the Pioneer, 48 for Hitachi and older Panasonics, 96 for the V-series Panasonics).

I'm hanging out for the Panasonic V series here in Australia for just that reason. I hate judder, and I hate interpolation.
Wrong.

*looks at my Samsung LN46a850*

24p enabled , AMP on - Interpolation
24p enabled , AMP off - 5:5 pulldown

A large number of tv's do this (from 2008 on).

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155
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Old Jul 2, 2009, 03:08 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dawg View Post
It's been said a hundred times in here, but the weird motion you see is unrelated to 120Hz, it is motion interpolation, which is available on 60Hz TVs, and can be turned off on any TV that has it.
Ok, so what happens to a 24p signal when you display it at 120Hz without the interpolation?
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Old Jul 2, 2009, 03:24 PM   #11
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Ok, so what happens to a 24p signal when you display it at 120Hz without the interpolation?
Each frame is duplicated 5 times I guess.

The important thing to remember is not IF the set has native support for 24p material, but how well it is implemented. I've seen a couple of 120hz LCDs and they looked "strange" for lack of a better term.
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Old Jul 2, 2009, 05:10 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Debello View Post
3D movies using Nvidia's 3D Vision technology.
Only if the 120Hz TV can accept a 120Hz source. The vast majority of which can't (last I checked)
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Old Jul 2, 2009, 05:18 PM   #13
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Ok, so what happens to a 24p signal when you display it at 120Hz without the interpolation?
It shows 5 identical frames in a row. Turn on interpolation, and it calculates in between frames.
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Old Jul 2, 2009, 06:04 PM   #14
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It shows 5 identical frames in a row. Turn on interpolation, and it calculates in between frames.
Doesn't showing 5 refreshes of the same frame still look weird though? It does to me.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 09:09 AM   #15
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Doesn't showing 5 refreshes of the same frame still look weird though? It does to me.
As I said, what you're seeing is likely interpolation, turn it off and it should look similar to movie-theater film.

However the LCD motion problems are apparent when interpolation is off, so you may see motion blur.

Interpolation ON = you'll see soap-opera like smooth video
Interpolation OFF = you may see motion blur - like moving faces blur, then sharpen when the character stops moving.

This is the problem with LCDs - you're stuck with one or the other.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 09:48 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Dawg View Post
There are dozens of TVs do this, not just the ones you listed. In fact pretty much every 120Hz TV will display 24p at an even multiple w/out interpolation.

There are even 3-4 year old projection TVs that do it. AVS Forum has a thread listing them all.
Oops, my bad, should have clarified I was only referring to plasmas. The LCDs do indeed do it as well, and most projection TVs do it, but the image quality of both are rather poo compared to plasma.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 09:52 AM   #17
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I'm likely alone on this....

I don't like the fact that film is shot at 24fps. I know that's what people are used to and when they see it interpolated on a 120Hz TV they think it looks weird. I like it when it looks like smooth DV. I wish movies were shot @60fps for smoothness.

Like I said, I'm likely the only one who likes to see film smoother than what it is...24fps is really low
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 12:05 PM   #18
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Oops, my bad, should have clarified I was only referring to plasmas. The LCDs do indeed do it as well, and most projection TVs do it, but the image quality of both are rather poo compared to plasma.
Yeah ok. My next TV will be the Panasonic V10, cause that triples the 24p, to 72Hz, which supposedly removes the flicker problem of the older Panasonics which just double 24p to 48Hz.

My LCD actually looks very smooth with 24p Blu-Rays. It's mainly 1080i comcast that sucks on it. But occasionally there's blur, even on Blu-Rays, depending on the film, and since I'll need a new TV soon anyway, I plan to switch to plasma.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 12:06 PM   #19
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As I said, what you're seeing is likely interpolation, turn it off and it should look similar to movie-theater film.
That's not really what I'm getting at...
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 12:08 PM   #20
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I'm likely alone on this....

I don't like the fact that film is shot at 24fps. I know that's what people are used to and when they see it interpolated on a 120Hz TV they think it looks weird. I like it when it looks like smooth DV. I wish movies were shot @60fps for smoothness.

Like I said, I'm likely the only one who likes to see film smoother than what it is...24fps is really low
You're not alone, but it's very unlikely that will change, since film is supposed to look like film. If you go to a stage production - very different look from a film. Some prefer films to live stage productions (I'm one of them).

If you like the smooth look, just turn on motion interpolation. Samsung's Low implementation is pretty much artifact-free.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 12:10 PM   #21
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That's not really what I'm getting at...
If you're claiming you can tell the difference between 5 identical frames in 1/24 sec, vs 1 frame at 1/24, I call BS on that.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 12:20 PM   #22
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I dunno, it still looks weird to me on most tvs. *shrug*
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 12:41 PM   #23
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If you're claiming you can tell the difference between 5 identical frames in 1/24 sec, vs 1 frame at 1/24, I call BS on that.
Not only that, but especially on LCD where the pixel will hold it's value for those 5 refresh cycles (and not refresh on and off). You won't even know it's doing it.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 12:53 PM   #24
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Like I said, it looked weird to me but I dunno why. I'll check out the tvs again when I have some more time and make sure interpolation is off while comparing static and moving scenes to see if it's just motion blur.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 01:06 PM   #25
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How does the jump to 240Hz play into this?
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 01:10 PM   #26
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How does the jump to 240Hz play into this?
Same thing. Except it would be interpolation or 10:10 pulldown for 24 fps content.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 05:52 PM   #27
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How does the jump to 240Hz play into this?
not really a purpose to it, since 120 covers all of the major framerates. However, if for some reason you had a video that was filmed at 40 fps, then 240 would be great.
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 10:47 PM   #28
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How does the jump to 240Hz play into this?
That's marketing crap, imo. 120 Hz is more than enough, and 240Hz doesn't do a thing to help LCD's main issue, motion blur (when interpolation is off).
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Old Jul 3, 2009, 10:50 PM   #29
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Like I said, it looked weird to me but I dunno why. I'll check out the tvs again when I have some more time and make sure interpolation is off while comparing static and moving scenes to see if it's just motion blur.
Could even be you're used to 3:2 pulldown judder, which is absent in proper 24p mode. But since interpolation is almost always ON for display TVs, that's probably it.
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Old Jul 4, 2009, 12:00 AM   #30
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Only if the 120Hz TV can accept a 120Hz source. The vast majority of which can't (last I checked)
Nvidia's website lists the TVs that can.
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