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Old Jan 31, 2019, 10:52 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by NWR_Midnight View Post
It only has a handful of games on it, wait till the catalog gets larger and more people are downloading, updating, etc. all at the same time. They are not prepared, Steam went thru similar growing pains.
well i mean they have one of the biggest games in the world on their platform, right? they probably know A LITTLE about catering to mass amounts of people. sure, they'll grow, but the experience of hosting fortnite is gonna be huge.
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Old Jan 31, 2019, 11:57 PM   #332
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Well it seems epic is getting a lot of their bandwidth from amazon servers, when I download from epic I get a whole bunch *.amazonaws.com network connections from them for the down loader.

Did a little research which seems to confrim it, so if they can pay the rental they *may* have plenty on tap.

PS it seems even steam may be utilising amazonws server farms as well.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 12:27 AM   #333
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New drinking game: take a shot every time he says exploration

Metro 2033 review: this is a focused, atmospheric shooter with amazing set pieces, interesting story, and top notch graphics. I just wish it HaD MoRe ExPloRation!!!!
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 12:34 AM   #334
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I'm definitely not pre-ordering this. I'll wait and see how the launch goes? Also since I have game pass, and it appears it will be on there, I'll just play it on my XB1X until I decide.

update: its been confirmed all physical copies will contain an epic store key.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 05:29 AM   #335
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I'm definitely not pre-ordering this. I'll wait and see how the launch goes? Also since I have game pass, and it appears it will be on there, I'll just play it on my XB1X until I decide.

update: its been confirmed all physical copies will contain an epic store key.
This won’t be on game pass for a long time. Only titles that get put on at release are Microsoft titles.

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Old Feb 1, 2019, 07:44 AM   #336
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Grown ****ing up! If the game is good, who cares is it on Steam or not!
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 08:32 AM   #337
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Grown ****ing up! If the game is good, who cares is it on Steam or not!
People who don’t want 89 different applications launching to play different games?

People who don’t want to support Epic’s strongarming and exclusivity?

People who don’t want to reward the developers for screwing over customers a month before release?

Plenty of reasons to not support this crap.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 09:12 AM   #338
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Grown ****ing up! If the game is good, who cares is it on Steam or not!
People with your way of thinking are the reason games on steam have steam client/drm + uplay + denuvo + vmprotect.

But yeah I guess we should all grow the **** up and stop complaining....


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People who don’t want 89 different applications launching to play different games?

People who don’t want to support Epic’s strongarming and exclusivity?

People who don’t want to reward the developers for screwing over customers a month before release?

Plenty of reasons to not support this crap.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 10:21 AM   #339
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Grown ****ing up! If the game is good, who cares is it on Steam or not!
Whether devs like it or not, Steam has become synonymous with PC gaming. I know that all my friends have it installed, so when we buy a game we know that we can easily chat, watch each others games, be updated at the same time, and get alerted when we pop online.

All this fragmentation does is take gaming a huge step backward. I already have Origin, UPlay, Microsoft Store, GOG galaxy, etc. installed. The only one I set to start with my PC is Steam. When we want to play BF4 or Wildlands, we still coordinate on Steam.

Maybe eventually someone like Discord will be able to implement a launcher for launchers
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 11:12 AM   #340
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How does Steam's cut compare to Microsoft and Sony?
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 12:03 PM   #341
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Valve is partially to blame for the fragmentation. 15 years ago it was fine to take a 30% cut as bandwidth was expensive back then and most devs/publishers did not have the kind of global networking infrastructure you need to distribute games online to millions of people.

Nowadays with CDNs (content delivery networks) and more efficient ISP peering among other improvements, the cost of bandwidth has dropped over the past decade to the point where other publishers are questioning why Valve is still taking such a huge cut. Valve should have been decreasing their take gradually over the years if they were serious about decreasing fragmentation.

Instead they were stubborn about it and only drove other big publishers away. And to make things worse when they did eventually implement a scaling down of their cut, it only applied to games earning 10mil+, completely dismissing the indie devs who needed the most help.

Somewhere about 12-15% would be a lot more reasonable and not drive other publishers away, and not leave a big hole in the market for struggling indie devs who could easily be paid a lump sum for exclusivity.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 12:08 PM   #342
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Valve is partially to blame for the fragmentation. 15 years ago it was fine to take a 30% cut as bandwidth was expensive back then and most devs/publishers did not have the kind of global networking infrastructure you need to distribute games online to millions of people.

Nowadays with CDNs (content delivery networks) and more efficient ISP peering among other improvements, the cost of bandwidth has dropped over the past decade to the point where other publishers are questioning why Valve is still taking such a huge cut. Valve should have been decreasing their take gradually over the years if they were serious about decreasing fragmentation.

Instead they were stubborn about it and only drove other big publishers away. And to make things worse when they did eventually implement a scaling down of their cut, it only applied to games earning 10mil+, completely dismissing the indie devs who needed the most help.

Somewhere about 12-15% would be a lot more reasonable and not drive other publishers away, and not leave a big hole in the market for struggling indie devs who could easily be paid a lump sum for exclusivity.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 01:23 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Drexion View Post
Valve is partially to blame for the fragmentation. 15 years ago it was fine to take a 30% cut as bandwidth was expensive back then and most devs/publishers did not have the kind of global networking infrastructure you need to distribute games online to millions of people.

Nowadays with CDNs (content delivery networks) and more efficient ISP peering among other improvements, the cost of bandwidth has dropped over the past decade to the point where other publishers are questioning why Valve is still taking such a huge cut. Valve should have been decreasing their take gradually over the years if they were serious about decreasing fragmentation.

Instead they were stubborn about it and only drove other big publishers away. And to make things worse when they did eventually implement a scaling down of their cut, it only applied to games earning 10mil+, completely dismissing the indie devs who needed the most help.

Somewhere about 12-15% would be a lot more reasonable and not drive other publishers away, and not leave a big hole in the market for struggling indie devs who could easily be paid a lump sum for exclusivity.

There is more to costs then bandwidth. Yes, the bandwidth side has went down, but the rest of the costs continue to increase, specially as functionality, features, and their library increases. Cost will always continue to rise be it electricity, wages, upkeep, and the pure fact they have to employee more people as they grow. There is a reason steam is still the top digital platform delivery system, spite all the various ones that have tried and failed in changing that. Epic will be no difference, just as most other's it will end up being just a glorified launcher/digital distribution center for the games they develop. Much like Sony and Origin. Epic will also end up raising it's cut, as they won't be able to sustain it without doing so, as they have no clue the costs involved to be at the same level as steam. just watch and see. Many bigger distribution fronts such as GoG, Apple Store, GreenmanGaming, etc also take 30%, as well as many of the others.

BTW, steam share decreases to 25% once they earn $10 million (including "game packages, DLC, in-game sales, and Community Marketplace game fees"), and 20% when it hits $50 Million. Which they made this change in December.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 02:53 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by NWR_Midnight View Post
There is more to costs then bandwidth. Yes, the bandwidth side has went down, but the rest of the costs continue to increase, specially as functionality, features, and their library increases. Cost will always continue to rise be it electricity, wages, upkeep, and the pure fact they have to employee more people as they grow. There is a reason steam is still the top digital platform delivery system, spite all the various ones that have tried and failed in changing that. Epic will be no difference, just as most other's it will end up being just a glorified launcher/digital distribution center for the games they develop. Much like Sony and Origin. Epic will also end up raising it's cut, as they won't be able to sustain it without doing so, as they have no clue the costs involved to be at the same level as steam. just watch and see. Many bigger distribution fronts such as GoG, Apple Store, GreenmanGaming, etc also take 30%, as well as many of the others.

BTW, steam share decreases to 25% once they earn $10 million (including "game packages, DLC, in-game sales, and Community Marketplace game fees"), and 20% when it hits $50 Million. Which they made this change in December.
I work for a datacenter, cloud computing, and CDN company. I see what we charge to our customers, how much space they are using, how much bandwidth they are using, how much the hardware costs are for the cloud computing, and I can say with confidence that Valve can easily go down to 15% and it would still leave them plenty of room for massive amount of profit. Going by their year in review for 2018, I would estimate Valve is spending about 5-7% of their revenue on their yearly costs, based on what I see working for my company and looking at billing of our customers.


Steam's new revenue cut tiers are still a joke really. Using how their system works, lets say a game makes $60 million in revenue, $45 million goes to developer/publisher and $15 million goes to Valve, making it an over all average of 25% going to Valve, which is still more then 2x the amount that Epic is charging.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 02:57 PM   #345
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People who don’t want to reward the developers for screwing over customers a month before release?
While i do agree with the post iteself. I wish people would stop spouting this ****.

4AGames did NOT screw over their customers. Deep Silver did. The DEVELOPER has NOTHING to do with sales. It has nothing to do with back room deals, they dont choose to work with nvidia exclusive crap, they dont choose price point on sale, they dont choose to make first day patches, they do not have the say to make a deal with epic to sell their game exclusively...

There are plenty of things developers are at fault for, but even in games like andromeda developers for video games that are tied to publishers, are rarely at fault for ANY of the bullshit we as consumers deal with.

It disgusts me how many times developers get berated or bashed verbally, even sent threats in mail, for the **** publishers pull, while those same publishers sit back and count the consumers money.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 03:05 PM   #346
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I work for a datacenter, cloud computing, and CDN company. I see what we charge to our customers, how much space they are using, how much bandwidth they are using, how much the hardware costs are for the cloud computing, and I can say with confidence that Valve can easily go down to 15% and it would still leave them plenty of room for massive amount of profit. Going by their year in review for 2018, I would estimate Valve is spending about 5-7% of their revenue on their yearly costs, based on what I see working for my company and looking at billing of our customers.


Steam's new revenue cut tiers are still a joke really. Using how their system works, lets say a game makes $60 million in revenue, $45 million goes to developer/publisher and $15 million goes to Valve, making it an over all average of 25% going to Valve, which is still more then 2x the amount that Epic is charging.
Why do people do this? They think because of one area of their expense, they assume that is the only expense they have, or the largest expnse. The charges you see are only a portion of their costs of doing business. There are so many expenses that most people (not saying you) don't have a clue about. Beyond the billing numbers you see, there are wages, taxes (a big area most don't understand as there are many taxes that most are not aware of that businesses have, specially when it comes to payroll), Utilities, building rent and/or mortgage payments, maintenance and upkeep, business licenses, insurance, legal fees, etc. the list goes on and on. So, about 5 to 7% of their income goes to just your area.. so how much does it take to cover all other expenses??? Heck, credit card fees are roughly on average 3% of the retail purchase.. that is 10% of their 30% take. just in that expense alone. Lets put it a different way.. is your Internet connection the only bill you have at home? How many other expenses, just to run a house hold do you have beyond that, which in the end, is still substantially less than the number of expenses that business's have.


As for Epic, there current pricing is most likely at a loss to them to build a catalog of 3rd party titles. They will either have to adjust it higher, or it will fail as a 3rd party distribution front and go back to just being a launcher/front for their own games. Credit card fees alone will eat up most of their 12% take.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 03:18 PM   #347
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why do people do this... they think because of one area of their expense, they assume that is the only expense they have. The charges you see are only a portion of their costs of doing business. There are so many expenses that most people (not saying you) don't have a clue about. Beyond the billing numbers you see, there are wages, taxes (a big area most don't understand as there are many taxes that most are not aware of that businesses have, specially when it comes to payroll), Utilities, building rent and/or mortgage payments, maintenance and upkeep, the list goes on and on. So, about 7 to 8% of their income goes to just your area.. so you believe that it only takes another 7 to 8% to cover all other expenses??? Lets put it a different way.. is your Internet connection the only bill you have at home? How many other expenses, just to run a house hold do you have beyond that?


As for Epic, there current pricing is most likely at a loss to them to build a catalog of 3rd party titles. They will either have to adjust it higher, or it will fail as a 3rd party distribution front.
No, my estimate includes all that stuff you just said. The cloud computing and CDN services we provide would be about 1% of their revenue, the other 4-6% is for all the other costs the company would be covering that you mention.

That is why Epic can charge 12%, cause about 5-7% of that is going to their costs, the rest is going to be profit... .well except perhaps during their growing period where they are paying for exclusives, paying for marketing through creators themselves, but once they are no longer paying for exclusives, and not paying for the creators out of their own pocket, that 12% will still be very profitable for them, and Valve could easily go down to 15% and still make massive profits.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 03:24 PM   #348
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12% certainly does not seem to be enough considering that epic is pushing payment processing fees over to the customer for some payments options.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 03:28 PM   #349
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Steam's monthly Krispy Kreme bill is more than 12%
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 03:31 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Mangler View Post
12% certainly does not seem to be enough considering that epic is pushing payment processing fees over to the customer for some payments options.
Here is what Tim Sweeney has to say about that, from his Twitter:

"Epic adds a payment processing fee to the high-overhead international payment methods marked with asterisks in the hyperlinked chart above because it’s the only practicable way to operate a 12% fee store in those developing countries. Why Valve takes 30% everywhere I do not know."

"This is the only practicable way to operate a 12% fee store in developing countries. In some parts of Russia and Southeast Asia, the only widely accessible payment methods are retail cards with 15%+ fee. These are a small fraction of overall transactions though."
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 03:45 PM   #351
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No, my estimate includes all that stuff you just said. The cloud computing and CDN services we provide would be about 1% of their revenue, the other 4-6% is for all the other costs the company would be covering that you mention.

That is why Epic can charge 12%, cause about 5-7% of that is going to their costs, the rest is going to be profit... .well except perhaps during their growing period where they are paying for exclusives, paying for marketing through creators themselves, but once they are no longer paying for exclusives, and not paying for the creators out of their own pocket, that 12% will still be very profitable for them, and Valve could easily go down to 15% and still make massive profits.

That is pure BS! There is no Business in the world that only has an overhead of 5 top 7%. Taxes alone are more then that considering the average adjusted tax rate for most businesses was 21% thru 2017 in the USA. Obviously will be probably close to half that after the new tax laws in 2018, but still higher than your estimated total of 5 to 7% in expenses.

Credit card fees alone eat up 25% of Epic's take alone. Math again: lets use Metro's pricing: Epic's Take- $49.99 X 12% = $6, Credit card fees - $49.99 X 3% = $1.50, $1.5 / $6 = .25 or 25%. So, how can they be only paying 5 to 7% in expenses, when just the credit card fees take 25%? (Credit card fees also include Paypal, which is 2.9% plus a $.30 charge per transaction)

Same goes for steam.. Credit card fees alone take 10% of their 30% take... so how can their total expense only equal 5 to 7%, when credit card fees alone already total 10% of their take?

edit: if Epic is pushing some of the credit card fees onto the customer, then they are giving the developers a break and passing the extra costs onto the customers. In other words, they are making the customer pay for that portion of their business expenses. Steam does not due this, at least in the states.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 05:51 PM   #352
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That is pure BS! There is no Business in the world that only has an overhead of 5 top 7%. Taxes alone are more then that considering the average adjusted tax rate for most businesses was 21% thru 2017 in the USA. Obviously will be probably close to half that after the new tax laws in 2018, but still higher than your estimated total of 5 to 7% in expenses.

Credit card fees alone eat up 25% of Epic's take alone. Math again: lets use Metro's pricing: Epic's Take- $49.99 X 12% = $6, Credit card fees - $49.99 X 3% = $1.50, $1.5 / $6 = .25 or 25%. So, how can they be only paying 5 to 7% in expenses, when just the credit card fees take 25%? (Credit card fees also include Paypal, which is 2.9% plus a $.30 charge per transaction)

Same goes for steam.. Credit card fees alone take 10% of their 30% take... so how can their total expense only equal 5 to 7%, when credit card fees alone already total 10% of their take?

edit: if Epic is pushing some of the credit card fees onto the customer, then they are giving the developers a break and passing the extra costs onto the customers. In other words, they are making the customer pay for that portion of their business expenses. Steam does not due this, at least in the states.
Nope, talking about their expeses vs their revenue. Vast majority of credit card fees are 2-3%, the CDN (Content delivery Network) accounts to about 1% of their revenue, hardware costs with 5x redundancy for about 5 Petabytes of data in 28 different cities is going to cost them about 175 million in hardware costs (paid for over time), they have 360 employees, if you figure $300k in costs per employee (salarly, benefits, other costs) is $108 Million a year, with how much data transfer they went through, using the costs of my company which is .37 cents per Gigabyte of transfer for our biggest customer, it would have cost Valve $55 million per year, this is the CDN costs. Valve is estimated to have a revenue of 4.3 Billion in 2017.


175 million in hardware costs (spent over time, lets do 15 million per year)
108 Million per year for employee+overhead
55 Million bandwidth (CDN)
130 Million in credit card fees

308 Million in costs.

308 Million is 7.2% of of the 4.3 Billion in revenue.

1.29 Billion is 30% of revenue, which puts them close to $1 billion in profit per year.
They take 15% instead, and they'll still make 500 million per year in profit.


Currently their costs represent about 24% of their Revenue after what they pay to the developers. What they pay to the developers is also a cost, so their total costs are 77.2% of their revenue.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 05:55 PM   #353
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So who here is caving into the Epic store purchase?

I have a huge feeling this game is going to rape my 1080 at 1440p. Perhaps holding off for not only a Steam copy but also a future GPU upgrade for best visuals on first play through is best!
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 06:12 PM   #354
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I wonder when it will end up in a 2080/2080 ti bundle?
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 06:27 PM   #355
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So who here is caving into the Epic store purchase?

I have a huge feeling this game is going to rape my 1080 at 1440p. Perhaps holding off for not only a Steam copy but also a future GPU upgrade for best visuals on first play through is best!
I've been






wonder how I buy the Season Pass if I want to now
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 06:49 PM   #356
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Bill, it’s a sign! No RTX
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 07:40 PM   #357
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Nope, talking about their expeses vs their revenue. Vast majority of credit card fees are 2-3%, the CDN (Content delivery Network) accounts to about 1% of their revenue, hardware costs with 5x redundancy for about 5 Petabytes of data in 28 different cities is going to cost them about 175 million in hardware costs (paid for over time), they have 360 employees, if you figure $300k in costs per employee (salarly, benefits, other costs) is $108 Million a year, with how much data transfer they went through, using the costs of my company which is .37 cents per Gigabyte of transfer for our biggest customer, it would have cost Valve $55 million per year, this is the CDN costs. Valve is estimated to have a revenue of 4.3 Billion in 2017.


175 million in hardware costs (spent over time, lets do 15 million per year)
108 Million per year for employee+overhead
55 Million bandwidth (CDN)
130 Million in credit card fees

308 Million in costs.

308 Million is 7.2% of of the 4.3 Billion in revenue.

1.29 Billion is 30% of revenue, which puts them close to $1 billion in profit per year.
They take 15% instead, and they'll still make 500 million per year in profit.


Currently their costs represent about 24% of their Revenue after what they pay to the developers. What they pay to the developers is also a cost, so their total costs are 77.2% of their revenue.
The problem is you are missing so many expenses/overhead in your calculations.

Just to name a few of the common ones you are missing:

1) The big one you missed: TAXES
2) Location costs (rent, mortgage, or lease as well as land taxes)
3) Utilities (electricity, gas, phone, tv, internet outside the CDN, etc)
4) Maintenance costs (facility maintenance, repairs, upkeep, cleaning, snow removal and/or lawn mowing, Plant life care, etc)
5) Business Insurance (every business needs various different types)
6) Supplies and office expenses
7) Profession fees (Attorneys, CPA, tax advisor)
8) Business Association Fees (business groups, professional publications)
9) Traveling and Entertainment Expenses (business related only)
10) Miscellaneous expenses that don't fall under a category.


Those are just basic expenses that are most common for businesses. There are many other expenses as well. Also, steam makes up 60 to 70% of their revenue, not all of it.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 07:42 PM   #358
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Bill, it’s a sign! No RTX
most likely

but 4k
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 07:56 PM   #359
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There is a epic megastore thread for the cock loving gays here. Go tickle the butt over there. Can we keep to Metro Exodus. I have a feeling that this game gonna be good.
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Old Feb 1, 2019, 07:58 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by NWR_Midnight View Post
The problem is you are missing so many expenses/overhead in your calculations.

Just to name a few of the common ones you are missing:

1) Location costs (rent, mortgage, or lease as well as land taxes)
2) Utilities (electricity, gas, phone, tv, internet outside the CDN, etc)
3) Maintenance costs (facility maintenance, repairs, upkeep, cleaning, snow removal and/or lawn mowing, Plant life care, etc)
4) Business Insurance (every business needs various different types)
5) Supplies and office expenses
6) Profession fees (Attorneys, CPA, tax advisor)
7) Advertising and Marketing
8) Business Association Fees (business groups, professional publications)
9) Traveling and Entertainment Expenses (business related only)
10) Miscellaneous expenses that don't fall under a category.
11) The big one you missed: TAXES

Those are just basic expenses that are most common for businesses. There are many other expenses as well.
The 108 Million in employee+Overhead is what includes all that stuff. Went with an average salary of 100k, most likely high, and then times it by 3. I remember reading from a business journal about ideal overhead costs should be around 50-75% of employees salary, I went with 200% more on top of employee salary.
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The home is the first and most effective place to learn the lessons of life: truth, honor, virtue, self control, the value of education, honest work, and the purpose and privilege of life. Nothing can take the place of home in rearing and teaching children, and no other success can compensate for failure in the home.
Quote:
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Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.

Last edited by Eisberg : Feb 1, 2019 at 08:08 PM.
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