Go Back   Rage3D » Rage3D Discussion Area » Graphics Technology Forums » AMD Radeon Discussion and Support
Rage3D Subscribe Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

AMD Radeon Discussion and Support General discussion, tweaking, overclocking and technical support questions about discrete Radeon graphics products.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Feb 16, 2003, 02:04 PM   #1
Advertisement (Guests Only)

Login or Register to remove this ad
paju
Radeon R520
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 484
paju is still being judged by the masses


Default Wish for R400

I tested some time ago Hitachi's TFT monitor (CML174SWX)beside my Samsung CRT (959NF). The difference was huge in favour to TFT. Tried also a game: NOLF 2. No ghosting or any drawbacks - at least I couldn't see and that's enough for me to justify usage of TFT for everything.

Well, almost for everything. Non-native resolutions doesn't look good on TFT. I read from Tom's or somewhere else that there already was a GPU or TFT that does the scaling and does it pretty well. This is something ATi should implement to the R400 if not sooner via drivers. TFT sales are expanding at high speed but current GPUs are not capable of producing frames fast enough to fill 1280x1024 or 1600x1200 resolution. Therefor one must lower the resolution but the IQ drops quite much due to the TFT's poor scaling.

I bet there would be quite a lot more customers for ATi if R400 would do scaling in the HW and do it well. I don't think this would be that difficult to do.
__________________
Game rig: [email protected]+, Asus A7N8X Deluxe Gold, 2x256DDR CAS2, R9800Pro 128MB, Hercules GTXP 6.1, Plextor TA1210, NEC ND-2500A, 120GB Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 S-ATA, Samsung959NF
paju is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 16, 2003, 02:14 PM   #2
EnDlEsS
No one lives forever.
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,793
EnDlEsS is still being judged by the masses


Default

Things I think ATi should add for R400 or RV400 (If they don't mind ):

1. Edge AA or FAA up to 32X
2. Surround gaming
3. On die vertex and texture cache (At least 1MB for each), cache like the L2 on P4 and athlon for faster performance. (I know, I know. this is not likely to happen tho.)
4. Even higher AF level if is possible
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryars
Life goes on so why not follow it?
EnDlEsS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 16, 2003, 02:45 PM   #3
Hanners
Zetsubou Sensei
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: United Kingdom England
Posts: 15,680
Hanners is still being judged by the masses


Default Re: Wish for R400

Quote:
Originally posted by paju
I read from Tom's or somewhere else that there already was a GPU or TFT that does the scaling and does it pretty well. This is something ATi should implement to the R400 if not sooner via drivers. TFT sales are expanding at high speed but current GPUs are not capable of producing frames fast enough to fill 1280x1024 or 1600x1200 resolution. Therefor one must lower the resolution but the IQ drops quite much due to the TFT's poor scaling.
I believe it's the Mobility Radeon 9000 that does the scaling you're speaking of.

An interesting idea, although I have no idea whether we'll see it implemented on desktop video cards any time soon.
__________________
Owner / Editor-in-Chief - Elite Bastards
Hanners is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement (Guests Only)
Login or Register to remove this ad
Old Feb 16, 2003, 03:06 PM   #4
madshi
Radeon R300
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 111
madshi is still being judged by the masses


Default

The R300 is already fast enough to run most games at 1600x1200 smoothly. If the R400 is as fast as it is said to be (maybe twice as fast as R300), then scaling is simply not needed, because R400 can run any game in the natural resolution of your display.
__________________
www.madshi.net
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 16, 2003, 03:10 PM   #5
typedef enum
Radeon R520
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 584
typedef enum is still being judged by the masses


Default

I really hope that somebody else would pickup Surround Gaming as well.

It's almost a sure thing that I will be getting an R350 board when they're released, and the hardest thing will definitely be giving up the Parhelia's SG option. I realize it's a rather niche thing, but it's really not very difficult to put together a piece of hardware to support it.
typedef enum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 16, 2003, 03:19 PM   #6
paju
Radeon R520
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 484
paju is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by madshi
The R300 is already fast enough to run most games at 1600x1200 smoothly. If the R400 is as fast as it is said to be (maybe twice as fast as R300), then scaling is simply not needed, because R400 can run any game in the natural resolution of your display.
Well, most games yes but never and upcoming one it won't (Doom III for instance). Also, all games do not support resolutions such as 1280x1024 (e.g. CS in ogl), which pretty much requires to have scaling either by TFT or preferably by the GPU.

Hanners: thanks for the info. I thought it was mobility chip but wasn't sure.
__________________
Game rig: [email protected]+, Asus A7N8X Deluxe Gold, 2x256DDR CAS2, R9800Pro 128MB, Hercules GTXP 6.1, Plextor TA1210, NEC ND-2500A, 120GB Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 S-ATA, Samsung959NF
paju is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 12:56 AM   #7
josecisapi
Radeon R300
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 137
josecisapi is still being judged by the masses


Question

just a simple wish...

whatever is written in the white papers or in the box, should work.
At least give me a card that will work on all aspects as expected from day "0", that means after install, it should run without a glitch and not keep me waiting to have all the features that the box have.

Overall good work, but could be better.
josecisapi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 06:02 AM   #8
demonic
Hallowed are the Ori
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England London
Posts: 443
demonic is still being judged by the masses


Default

Whats this GPU scaling all about??

I have a TFT which its optimal res is 1280x1024.. anything below that i.e 1024x768 or 800x600 looks blurry or junk.

Does this scaling make lower res look much better?

For example like 21" CRT's.. they can handle 640x480 all the way up to 2048x1536 (like mine) and the display very sharp and colours crisp.

Is this what the scaling does for TFT's??

Thanks

Its just that I want to go > 20"+ TFT in the future, and want nice 1024x768 for gaming.

Cheers
demonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 06:07 AM   #9
Hanners
Zetsubou Sensei
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: United Kingdom England
Posts: 15,680
Hanners is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by demonic
Whats this GPU scaling all about??

I have a TFT which its optimal res is 1280x1024.. anything below that i.e 1024x768 or 800x600 looks blurry or junk.

Does this scaling make lower res look much better?
Basically, yes.

Here's a full explanation from Anandtech's look at the Mobility Radeon 9000:

Quote:
New to the RV250's mobile core is an upgraded scaler. A scaler is a portion of the graphics chip which is dedicated to taking video and making it fit on the screen. When running an LCD panel at a resolution besides the native resolution of the panel, the scaler takes the image and stretches or shrinks it in order to make it display properly. ATI implemented a new scaler algorithm in the Mobility Radeon 9000 that produces sharper images at nonnative resolutions. Typically, notebook displays become fuzzy when running at a nonnative panel resolution. ATI's new scaler helps alleviate this problem and produces images much cleaner than before when scaling 1.5x or more. So, for example, the new scaler makes the image on UXGA (1600x1200) displays look much better than before when displaying at XGA resolutions (1024x768). This is mainly apparent when viewing text and does not really affect the visual quality of games all that much.
__________________
Owner / Editor-in-Chief - Elite Bastards
Hanners is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 07:48 AM   #10
demonic
Hallowed are the Ori
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England London
Posts: 443
demonic is still being judged by the masses


Default

Wow, so whats the chances of the R400 having this nice feature... or a better one...
demonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 07:51 AM   #11
Hanners
Zetsubou Sensei
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: United Kingdom England
Posts: 15,680
Hanners is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by demonic
Wow, so whats the chances of the R400 having this nice feature... or a better one...
Very slim I would imagine, I guess this kind of technology will be relegated to only being used in mobile products for the forseeable future.
__________________
Owner / Editor-in-Chief - Elite Bastards
Hanners is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 08:17 AM   #12
demonic
Hallowed are the Ori
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England London
Posts: 443
demonic is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanners
Very slim I would imagine, I guess this kind of technology will be relegated to only being used in mobile products for the forseeable future.
But why? surely CRT's are on the way out and TFT's are in
demonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 10:25 AM   #13
mbeeston
Darkness Mane
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada port jeuno, Valefor
Posts: 14,228
mbeeston once held a door open for a complete strangermbeeston once held a door open for a complete strangermbeeston once held a door open for a complete strangermbeeston once held a door open for a complete stranger


Default

mind if i ask the driffernce?
__________________
"you know? there is no problem with my family that wouldn't be solved by my death." - Me
RIP Joe 'Vengeance' Rupe
"you can't end a good party without someone on the floor" - Yusuke Urameshi
"Intelligence has nothing to do with politics." - ambassador muwlari
" when somethings weird and it don't look good, who do you think it is? GHOST NAPPA"
mbeeston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 10:26 AM   #14
Hanners
Zetsubou Sensei
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: United Kingdom England
Posts: 15,680
Hanners is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mbeeston
mind if i ask the driffernce?
Between what and what?
__________________
Owner / Editor-in-Chief - Elite Bastards
Hanners is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 11:05 AM   #15
mbeeston
Darkness Mane
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada port jeuno, Valefor
Posts: 14,228
mbeeston once held a door open for a complete strangermbeeston once held a door open for a complete strangermbeeston once held a door open for a complete strangermbeeston once held a door open for a complete stranger


Default

between crt and tft... i'm tired And forgot
__________________
"you know? there is no problem with my family that wouldn't be solved by my death." - Me
RIP Joe 'Vengeance' Rupe
"you can't end a good party without someone on the floor" - Yusuke Urameshi
"Intelligence has nothing to do with politics." - ambassador muwlari
" when somethings weird and it don't look good, who do you think it is? GHOST NAPPA"
mbeeston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 11:17 AM   #16
demonic
Hallowed are the Ori
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: England London
Posts: 443
demonic is still being judged by the masses


Default

Yeah a 21" CRT is heavy as hell and very wide. A 21" TFT is very slim, and very light!
demonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 11:56 AM   #17
Hellbinder
Nothing but the Truth
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada Coeur d Alene, Idaho
Posts: 5,124
Hellbinder is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
I really hope that somebody else would pickup Surround Gaming as well.
The only problem with surround gaming is its Really impractical. Maybe 1 out of 1000 R300/R400 classes users would have the hardware(monitors) avaiable to use such a feature.

I think the better path for the R400 would be to finally add Stereo gaming to the mix. ATi should even make their own 3dglasses, or licence one of the others and offer them pac-in. Just like they do with the Remote wonder.

Another option would be for them to enable surround-Effect gaming from a single monitor. Say at 640X640 it would allow a single monitor to display 3 concurrent screens. Left-Middle-Right. Much like split-screen multiplayer on consoles like Xbox.
__________________
Intel Core i5 2500 @ 3.6ghz
His Radeon 6870 @ 945/1140
4GB Ram
Hellbinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 12:09 PM   #18
TobiasRieper
Radeon R420
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Up yours
Posts: 214
TobiasRieper is still being judged by the masses


Default

Speaking of which, why are most games not displayed in widescreen?
Or is there a way to force display WS format? Wouldn't this show more of the 'surround' aspect of the environment?
TobiasRieper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2003, 02:44 PM   #19
bludragon
Radeon R420
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 315
bludragon is still being judged by the masses


Default

The scaling built into my hitachi tft seems to be quite acceptable.
It has a sharpness adjustment, which is quite handy.
I would prefer the monitor to do the scaling as then I'm sure it's not impacting performance, and this is in fact the default setup on desktop TFT displays.
Non-native resolution on a tft cannot look as good as it does on a crt, unless it is an exact multiple of the no of pixels - as the displayed pixels must be blurred across several physical pixels on the tft, whereas on a crt the physical pixels change size to match the displayed pixel size.
Higher res tft's will help.
Finally, the blurring doesn't look at all bad in most games, and in some ways makes things look better because it smeers out the obvious aliasing at lower resolutions. I can't see any need to diplay text at a non native res.
__________________
bludragon

sys specs:
WinXP SP1 DX9
Radeon 64DDR VIVO oem @ 195/195
palomino 1600+ @ 1600MHz core/133MHz fsb
chaintech 7KJD AMD760 based mobo.
onboard CMedia audio
bludragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
R400 RadeonX800? U like it? lamarodom007 AMD Radeon Discussion and Support 30 Apr 5, 2004 10:51 AM
r400 kilmas AMD Radeon Discussion and Support 33 Apr 8, 2003 12:55 AM
No r400 this year. odin30 AMD Radeon Discussion and Support 50 Mar 3, 2003 02:31 PM
R400 ByteMe Radeon Technical Support 15 Sep 23, 2002 08:33 PM
who Won't be getting a R400? planet4bs Radeon Technical Support 30 Aug 22, 2002 05:58 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:21 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All trademarks used are properties of their respective owners. Copyright ©1998-2011 Rage3D.com
Links monetized by VigLink