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Old Oct 7, 2001, 09:27 PM   #1
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Danaelus
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Default Tell me why I shouldn't buy a GeForce3?

I am in a tough spot. I am ready to throw down the cash on a new card, but I am having the toughest time picking which one to buy. I want to make the right choice, and I have brand loyalty to no one. I have asked this same question to those who believe Nvidia makes the best products and now I would like to hear your perspective. All of you who love ATI, here is your chance to make them a sale and pay them back for good service!

Let me mention a few things:
- I dont mind waiting a little while, so the argument that the GeForce3 is out now, and the Radeon wont be out for a while doesnt affect me.
- This is between the GeForce3 and the 8500, ti-500 is too expensive.
- I dont care about the company, just the product. Please dont tell me I shouldn't contribute to the evil of Nvidia or that I should donate my money to ATI
- Please use facts and sources. Things like "RADEON IS BETTER" or "radeon beats GF3 in quake" mean nothing to me without factual backing.

I really appreciate this guys, there are a lot of smart people on this forum, and I can't wait to hear what you have to say.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 09:32 PM   #2
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Which card can't really be answered yet, not until the final 8500 has been thoroughly reviewed. If preliminary reports are accurate, the answer would be the 8500 because it's just as fast, if not faster, then the GF3, but much cheaper. Given ATi's driver reputation, especially considering the poor state they were in for the preview cards, suggests that waiting for reviews would be prudent (although I've already ordered mine, because of the price).

Regardless of which one you choose, you should wait just a short period. Even if the GF3 ends up being the best choice, those prices are plummeting even as we speak, most likely because of the 8500.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 09:32 PM   #3
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8500 beats the ti500 it also has better AA and it has Truform.Also its only like 260 Radeon 8500 all the way.Not to mention picture quality
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 09:44 PM   #4
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Good post Darin, yeah I am planning on waiting. People keep talking about the radeon like it is so cheap? I always see it for a little over 250, same as the GeForce3!!
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 09:53 PM   #5
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RADEON IS BETTER
and it beats the Gf3 in quake3
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 09:57 PM   #6
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Well, I jumped on the $200 deal at Dell, so I guess that's where a lot of my opinion on price comes from. I expect they will both come down in price in the coming months. The 8500 has more power, so it should be faster if they do a good job with the drivers. It also has more features, and SHOULD have better 2d & DVD. The ONLY variable is the drivers. Hopefully that question will be answered this week.

Edit: PS... the Radeon should be faster than the Ti500, and MUCH cheaper than it. It should be a little cheaper than the old GF3, and definately faster.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 09:57 PM   #7
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I WAS in the same spot your in...but when that Dell deal came up I pulled the trigger...hopefully my greed didn't get the best of me.

The way truform is looking , I think that will be a big plus in the 8500's corner.
Never have owned a ATI card before...always been nvida....
I think both cards will be plenty fast enough, better visual is what I was looking for.Many reviews on past ATI cards support that ATI has Nvida beat on visual quality. We'll see
Looks like ATI is improving there driver team so maybe all the old rap about bad drivers will be a thing of the past. Time will tell.
Anyways, wish Dell would ship my card soon.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 10:03 PM   #8
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how do you no the FSAA is better on the R8500 and it is faster ,with what reviews I have seen they are both to close to call,the big question is how will the drivers be in WinXP,this is what I am waiting on.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 10:06 PM   #9
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Talking Here are my reasons for buying the Radeon 8500 over the Geforce 3

1} Price..Got the killer deal at Dell.
2} Features{This time around I think the developers will support 'em}.
3} Image quality{noticable to me compared to an Nvidia product..Currently running a Gainward Cardexpert Geforce 2 Pro/450. Also have a Radeon 32Mb DDR}.
4} Stability/future proofing..Can't see buyin' a card for awhile, at least a year.
5} Kinda goes along with #2 but, developer support. How long after T&L did we games using it? The 8500 isn't even out and developers are talking patches.

These are all my reasons and to tell you the truth I would have to say the outstanding price that Dell offered really clinched it for me. Also the recent slew of benches pretty much sum up the fact that the Radeon 8500 is the best gaming card for DX 8.1
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 10:10 PM   #10
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LoL find out for yourself why you shouldn't buy a GF3! j/k.

If possible, look on a friend's computer with a GF3 than someone else's with a R8500 then look for some reviews/benchmarks.

Don't just listen to people that say "R8500 beats GF3 Ti500" since that isn't exactly true where R8500 may beat GF3 in some areas and vice versa -- which is true. The GF3 Ti500 "does" beat the R8500 if you have seen benches.

Then again, no "final" reviews have really been popping up since result very HIGHLY.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 10:34 PM   #11
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OK, here's some of the straight scoop the others won't give you:

Image quality: NO ONE POSTING HERE KNOWS WHAT THE ACTUAL IQ OF THE 8500 is. They're going completely on assumption, and probably to a great deal, product bias.

The Geforce3 has nice Image quality if you exclude it's ugly DXTC1 banding (which is fixable through a registry hack to make the card use DXTC3 instead) and has at least one seeming advantage past the Radeon series: IT CAN DO TRILINEAR AND ANISOTROPIC FILTERING AT THE SAME TIME. That means no annoying mipmap filtering bands.

The Geforce3 also has been on the market for 5 months. It's drivers are stable, mature, and just as fast under XP/2000 as under win9x.

Of course, the features vary from card to card, and there's many cardmakers.

Personally, though, I chose to order an 8500, as I find the dual head feature and overall speed/features to be the deciding factor.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 10:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by afr0tique
OK, here's some of the straight scoop the others won't give you:

Image quality: NO ONE POSTING HERE KNOWS WHAT THE ACTUAL IQ OF THE 8500 is. They're going completely on assumption, and probably to a great deal, product bias.
True, but it is not a random assumption. The Radeon series has shown to have better 2d quality than the GF series, including the GF3. We don't know that the 8500's 2d is going to be as good as the original Radeon, but 2d was a big deal for it, so I'd consider it to be unlikely that it would go down. They've even increased the bandwidth of the RAMDAC, which, if nothing else, says they aren't ignoring 2d this time around either.
Quote:
Originally posted by afr0tique
The Geforce3 has nice Image quality if you exclude it's ugly DXTC1 banding (which is fixable through a registry hack to make the card use DXTC3 instead) and has at least one seeming advantage past the Radeon series: IT CAN DO TRILINEAR AND ANISOTROPIC FILTERING AT THE SAME TIME. That means no annoying mipmap filtering bands.
In 3d quality, you are correct that the Radeon can not do triliear & anisotropic at the same time. To say that will hold true of the 8500 is no more of an assumption than the 2d issue above. If I had to guess, I'd say that will probably hold true, but I'd say it would be more likely that ATI would change this, than reduce the 2d quality.

You are right on the drivers, we have yet to see what they have done in that arena, and that is anybody's guess.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 10:56 PM   #13
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No, the anisotropic/trilinear comment wasn't an assumption.

Quote:
What does Radeon 8500 support in terms of Anisotropic filtering?

Basically it’s very similar to what we did in [the original] Radeon. The performance hit of it is really, really small in comparison to Anti-Aliasing.

One thing is that it’s orthogonal; that is to say it can be used on all six textures at once.

And it Radeon 8500 can take the same number of samples as Radeon?

That is correct. Which is a maximum degree of 16:1 anisotropic; now that’s 16 Bilinear samples, so when people talk about 64X they are usually multiplying by four. The level that’s required is determined per-pixel, which is one of the reasons why it’s such a low performance hit, is that for a pixel that doesn’t need that it just gets 2:1 or 1:1 or something.

Can it do Trilinear filtering at the same time?

No. It samples from one map.

This was basically an algorithmic choice. The anisotropic filter kernel by definition is not a square; it’s got a height and a width and we select the mip level based on the small dimension and then sample according to the large dimension of the filter kernel shape. It’s a way to do anisotropic filtering, there’s no true way to do it – true is generally not a word to use in graphics!
That's from an interview from only a few weeks ago with Jason Mitchell from ATI’s 3D Application Research Group.

I'd say that's probably a pretty reliable source.

Here's the link to the whole interview, which was posted on rage3d.com as news.
http://bbs.pcstats.com/beyond3d/mess...3&threadid=661
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 11:17 PM   #14
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I'm sorry but I gotta get it out
It's all about the Truform baby.

Currently games already supporting Truform:
Ever Quest: Lucin Expansion
Half-Life
Counter-Strike {Half-Life modification}
Serious Sam
Unreal Tournomant
and many more...

Last edited by Nathan : Oct 7, 2001 at 11:20 PM.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 11:27 PM   #15
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TruForm Supported? You mean compatible but not compliant right? Right now no game does TruForm totally correctly yet and many of those mentioned are not even out yet or even close to being out yet.
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Old Oct 7, 2001, 11:31 PM   #16
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To be honest, truform doesnt seem like that big of a deal for me. I am however pretty interested in drivers, so that may be a big hit against ATI. If I could get the Dell deal again it would be all over, but for now I am just about right in the middle.
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 12:01 AM   #17
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2D is better (most GF3 2d sucks, only Gainward and possibly Elsa are decent 2d)


also dual monitor support!

trust me, when you have 2 monitors, you never go back to 1.
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 12:14 AM   #18
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I only have 1 monitor. What does the board manufucturer have to do with anything?
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 01:07 AM   #19
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Didn't nVidia redesign the video filter for the TI series? They said that they were going to.

And one site I was at in the last few days pointed out the big ass new inductors (on the top left of the board at the same spot as the filter circuitry on the old boards). The inductors, presumably, are part of the new filter circuitry and presumably the TI family's display quality will be improved because of the new filter design (ie. sharper text at high resolutions/refresh rates).
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 01:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
What does the board manufucturer have to do with anything?
nVidia doesn't make graphics cards, just graphics chips. Other manufacturers use nVidia's chip and their reference board design (to a greater or lesser degree depending on manufacturer) to make the finished boards. Since the manufacturers have control of the final board specifications, not nVidia, they can use second rate shoddy filtering on the VGA output signal path, causing some noticeable problems (sometimes horrid) in 2D image quality.

As each manufacturer makes their own decisions, the quality of nVidia boards varies from one manufacturer to the next. Gainward and possibly Elsa made better than average GF2 products, and Gainward at least has established a good reputation for their GF3 card.

Buying the cheapest GFx card on the market may get you good performance, but you're probably taking a gamble on the image quality.
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 01:47 AM   #21
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One word: Money

You need to pay a lot of $$$ to buy the Ti500, while you pay less you can get a same level 8500~~!!
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 02:05 AM   #22
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While I did jump at the $200 8500 deal at Dell, I would suggest that you wait, as did others in the thread. While the 8500 is purported to support many new features, the real test comes after the hardware is on store shelves. Who knows what state the hardware or the drivers will be at initial release? I would wait about 2-3 weeks to make my decision. I have, however, had great luck with the previous Radeon iteration, and the preliminary reports on the 8500 show it surpassing the GF3 in performance and just about every other category, and performing at Titanium level at a much better price. I am willing to bet ($200 to be exact) that the 8500 is a great card.
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 07:40 AM   #23
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Wait for the full reviews of the 8500, and wait to see how many problems arise from users who have the card. This forum will be probably the best spot to watch for compatibility problems.

Tru-form has potential and any future game that is written with truform in mind will benefit from it. Older games with the truform hack will have numerous problems with things getting smoothed and curved that are not supposed to be. Check the forum for info on the problems with Serious Sam. I have heard of problems with Half-Life/CS with the weapons looking all funny etc.. While some older titles developers are still around to help fix these problems, don't count on it from too many. Fixing takes time and money which is better spent on a new title for most software developers trying to stay in business.


I already have a GF3 and I am very happy with it.

FPS in all games is awesome, even with FSAA on. There is not a single game out now, that I cannot play at 1600x1200 with 2x FSAA on and all graphic settings cranked.

2d image quality is just as good as the Radeon 64 (I have both and there is not much difference.) GF3 3D quality is better.

Stability and compatibility of the GF3 are EXCELLENT. I have not had a single problem with any game that I can think of. (I did wait about 3 months for the GF3 drivers to mature a bit.)

This is my biggest worry with the 8500. All new cards have problems in this area and ATI is notorious for past problems in this area. Especially watch the reviews for comments in this area. If you don't mind spending time with tweakers and fiddling with settngs to get games running correctly this may not worry you, but there is definately something to be said for NOT having to do this.


The 8500 definately is tempting though.

Speed wise it is just as fast in older games as the GF3's and will probably do better in newer games. I am very interested in seeing some real world high res. benchmarks with FSAA on. If you haven't seen your games @ 1600x1200 with FSAA on you are really missing out.

It it more DX 8.1 compatible as it supports pixel shaders 1.4.
The GF3 can only do 1.1 and 1.2/1.3 in software. This may be a moot point since developers will code for Nvidia compatibility first. We may never see a title in the 8500's usefull lifetime that shows much difference if at all in this area.

The 8500 will probabaly have better 2d quality, 3d quality will probably be about even. The GF3 can do triliear & anisotropic at the same time and this looks incredible. Not sure if the 8500 can do this.

The 8500 has a few more features like better DVD, dual head support etc..

The 8500 is cheaper than the TI's but probably more than the standard GF3 are now.

The Radeon 8500 is newer just as fast and cheaper.
The GF3 is probably more stable and compatible and has most of the industry coding for it first.

hmmm...

tough decision indeed...

I think you will be very happy what ever you choose.

Competition is a great thing.!!

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Old Oct 8, 2001, 09:06 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by afr0tique
No, the anisotropic/trilinear comment wasn't an assumption...
...Here's the link to the whole interview, which was posted on rage3d.com as news.
http://bbs.pcstats.com/beyond3d/mess...3&threadid=661
Apologies, I hadn't read that. Thanks for the info!
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 09:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by MSU_DUDE
LoL find out for yourself why you shouldn't buy a GF3! j/k.

If possible, look on a friend's computer with a GF3 than someone else's with a R8500 then look for some reviews/benchmarks.

Don't just listen to people that say "R8500 beats GF3 Ti500" since that isn't exactly true where R8500 may beat GF3 in some areas and vice versa -- which is true. The GF3 Ti500 "does" beat the R8500 if you have seen benches.

Then again, no "final" reviews have really been popping up since result very HIGHLY.
Well, the benches I've seen the 8500 beats the ti500 more often than it's the other way around, but I'm waiting for final benches with an 8500 clocked at 275/275(which would be the speed of any 8500 I'd get(depending on the reviews of the cheaper ones(If I can save 80 bucks on a 250/250 card, and it has just as good of IQ as the ATI cards, I'd probably go for that, but I've got a feeling the IQ on the less expensive ones won't be as good at the ATI ones...This would put a major hit against the ti200's price/performance ratio, since a 250/250 8500 should beat it by a decent margin for the same or cheaper price)
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 09:50 AM   #26
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Default Re: Here are my reasons for buying the Radeon 8500 over the Geforce 3

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachi1313
4} Stability/future proofing..Can't see buyin' a card for awhile, at least a year.
There's no such thing as a future proof video card. I personally doubt you'll see 30fps on Doom3 with a Radeon 8500 and highest quality 1024x768. You probably won't see more than 27fps on a GF3 Ti 500 though at the same setting.

My suggestion to everyone who buys a video card this month is to save a dollar a day for the next year and have money for the video cards being released in Q4 2002 or Q1 2003.

This year might not have any technological leaps as far as graphics left in it, but 2K2 will.
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 11:00 AM   #27
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Thus far this is what I've been able to gather as to the differences featurewise (as opposed to clock speed difference or performance).

The GF3 Ti has
3D Textures
Anisotropic Filtering while trilinear is on
Lightspeed Memory Architecture

The Radeon 8500 has
Truform
Video Immersion for better video and DVD playback
Dual monitor support
Direct X 8.1 support
Pixel Shader 1.4

Both have
Direct X 8.0 support
Z Buffer compression
4ns DDR Ram
Open GL 1.3
pixel shader 1.3
4 rendering pipelines
2 Texture Units
FSAA
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 11:05 AM   #28
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Does the GF3 still also have corrupt textures with texture compression on?

Does the Radeon or even the Radeon2 have that problem?

What does this mean when they say that the Radeon does Anistropy and Bilinear instead of Trilinear when I set game settings to Trilinear and Anistropy???

Plz explain exactly the "quality" not the technobabble of when both have anistropy on at the same level.
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 11:15 AM   #29
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Read this to answer your own questions about 'technobabble'
This
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Old Oct 8, 2001, 11:42 AM   #30
raspewtin
 
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The FSAA implementation on the ATI boards caters for texture aliasing, which should offset the loss of not being able to do trilinear plus Anisotropic filtering. Sure there is a bigger hit with FSAA, but really what's the point of these features if the performance hit is too high to make them usable (ie. benchmarks should be done with FSAA on) Preliminary benches from Anand suggest that the performance hit for FSAA on Radeon 8500 is smaller than that for GF3. Thus not being able to do trilinear plus Anisotropic is not a big deal IMO.



btw, I am pretty sure the Radeon 8500 can do 3d textures, not 100% certain. also the radeon 8500 does six textures in a single pass, so really the gf3 is not equal on this. in the next doom engine, gf3 will fall behind significantly b/c of this. re: pixel shaders, the gf3 supports only 1.1 pixel shader in hardware.


"The Radeon 8500 is newer just as fast and cheaper.
The GF3 is probably more stable and compatible and has most of the industry coding for it first."

->you mean faster, right? while it's unclear if it will be faster than the Ti500 in everything, it certainly is faster than the original GF3 (and it should be since it came 6 months later). re: support you have a real issue, since many games may be focused around gf3 so they can quick easy xbox ports. however really the OEM market is much larger than the retail market. Whoever the OEMs choose is who the developers will focus around. Right now they are choose nvidia cards, I am guessing that will change soon (OEM prices on 8500s are no doubt better than OEM prices on GF3, and dual head is a huge feature in the corporate sector, making the 8500 more appealing and versatile for OEMs)

Last edited by raspewtin : Oct 8, 2001 at 11:57 AM.
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