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Old Jul 25, 2015, 01:58 PM   #181
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Nagorak
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In all fairness harsh backlash from the ending of mass effect was on point the 3 original endings didn't keep in faith with the core values of the game which was that your choices matter and evolve over time into different outcomes, the endings only served to make every past action meaningless and seams kind of insane that it was the original intended story ending.

As for how that effects HL3, sure there could be some butt hurt over a bad story for HL3 but if any developer gets as stupid as BioWare when it comes to creating an ending regarding the ending to a franchise then well they deserve the backlash.
Well, also in all fairness, I don't think the story for HL2 was that monumental. If you look at the story itself critically, I think a lot of it ends up being sort of nonsensical. Fanboys have tried to make it out like there is all this deeper meaning, etc, but I think the reality is more like Lost, where Valve was just flying by the seat of their pants. So to be honest, I think it's unlikely that HL3's story would be so bad as to ruin it.

Also, what people refer to as the story of the HL series, I think is actually more like the setting and the experience, like working with Alyx. It's not exactly the overarching story per se, but there isn't a good word to describe it. As long as the basic experience of HL2 is preserved (preferably the episodes, since they were better) then I think that is what matters.
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Old Jul 25, 2015, 02:27 PM   #182
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As for how that effects HL3, sure there could be some butt hurt over a bad story for HL3 but if any developer gets as stupid as BioWare when it comes to creating an ending regarding the ending to a franchise then well they deserve the backlash.
Thanks for proving the point.
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Old Jul 25, 2015, 02:29 PM   #183
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I don't understand why they are worried, they already made a disappointing sequel to HL, and people handled it just fine.

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Old Jul 25, 2015, 03:04 PM   #184
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Well, also in all fairness, I don't think the story for HL2 was that monumental. If you look at the story itself critically, I think a lot of it ends up being sort of nonsensical. Fanboys have tried to make it out like there is all this deeper meaning, etc, but I think the reality is more like Lost, where Valve was just flying by the seat of their pants. So to be honest, I think it's unlikely that HL3's story would be so bad as to ruin it.

Also, what people refer to as the story of the HL series, I think is actually more like the setting and the experience, like working with Alyx. It's not exactly the overarching story per se, but there isn't a good word to describe it. As long as the basic experience of HL2 is preserved (preferably the episodes, since they were better) then I think that is what matters.
HL2 was a train wreak in my opinion loads of creativity but no direction which lead to what I took from it being nothing but a bunch of engine demo areas stitched together.

Also I remember hearing around the time of HL2 hype that the writer for HL had the entire story laid out I'm not sure how true that was but it made me hope there was an actual story there to be concluded and no matter how much I disliked how the game has evolved I still want to finish it.
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Old Jul 25, 2015, 07:19 PM   #185
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Well the idea that developers have a script for the game before they make the game is also hilarious.

Games are made with a general treatment, i.e. You have a document that lists intended game features, the general overlaying story i.e. how it starts, main scenes in a game and the ending but nothing specific.

No game will ever have a Script/story even remotely finished before the game it self is finished.

In my experience it's usually the game get's made at the same time and the story/script is then made to fit the situations made by the level designers.

Ofcourse there's a general idea of what they want making for a story hence the treatment but nothing set in stone.
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Old Jul 25, 2015, 08:54 PM   #186
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Well the idea that developers have a script for the game before they make the game is also hilarious.

Games are made with a general treatment, i.e. You have a document that lists intended game features, the general overlaying story i.e. how it starts, main scenes in a game and the ending but nothing specific.

No game will ever have a Script/story even remotely finished before the game it self is finished.

In my experience it's usually the game get's made at the same time and the story/script is then made to fit the situations made by the level designers.

Ofcourse there's a general idea of what they want making for a story hence the treatment but nothing set in stone.
Well, we're reasonably certain they have the name chosen by now.

Lets see if they built a game around it.



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Old Jul 25, 2015, 09:00 PM   #187
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Well the idea that developers have a script for the game before they make the game is also hilarious.

Games are made with a general treatment, i.e. You have a document that lists intended game features, the general overlaying story i.e. how it starts, main scenes in a game and the ending but nothing specific.

No game will ever have a Script/story even remotely finished before the game it self is finished.

In my experience it's usually the game get's made at the same time and the story/script is then made to fit the situations made by the level designers.

Ofcourse there's a general idea of what they want making for a story hence the treatment but nothing set in stone.
Well there was Metro 2033.

Metro 2033 the novel I'd say was not that great (cool setting, fairly poor otherwise), but measured by video game standards it was pretty good. And in that case the designers probably did benefit from having an idea of the story beforehand.

However, the situation you're presenting probably explains why computer game stories often tend to be so lackluster.
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Old Jul 25, 2015, 09:49 PM   #188
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Well the idea that developers have a script for the game before they make the game is also hilarious.

Games are made with a general treatment, i.e. You have a document that lists intended game features, the general overlaying story i.e. how it starts, main scenes in a game and the ending but nothing specific.

No game will ever have a Script/story even remotely finished before the game it self is finished.

In my experience it's usually the game get's made at the same time and the story/script is then made to fit the situations made by the level designers.

Ofcourse there's a general idea of what they want making for a story hence the treatment but nothing set in stone.
Are you sure about this? Seems really amateurish.

I believe a big budget game will have everything fleshed out down to the detail before any actual programming and game building even begins. Changes occur during development, but I think the story and the game script need to be set in stone before development begins.

Maybe smaller studios would wing it like that, but I can't imagine a game like Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, or Witcher 3 where the story/script is "made to fit the situation by the level designers". In fact I read somewhere from a developer that said "writing the game" often take longer than the actual game building itself.
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Old Jul 25, 2015, 10:30 PM   #189
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Infinity Ward and Naughty Dog used to do something similar with COD and Uncharted, or at least they claimed that to be the case in interviews.
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Old Jul 25, 2015, 10:54 PM   #190
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It better come out on "Source 2".
I, for one can't wait until Valve kills the hardware video card industry with their innovative new software renderer.
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Old Jul 25, 2015, 11:11 PM   #191
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Are you sure about this? Seems really amateurish.

I believe a big budget game will have everything fleshed out down to the detail before any actual programming and game building even begins. Changes occur during development, but I think the story and the game script need to be set in stone before development begins.

Maybe smaller studios would wing it like that, but I can't imagine a game like Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, or Witcher 3 where the story/script is "made to fit the situation by the level designers". In fact I read somewhere from a developer that said "writing the game" often take longer than the actual game building itself.
I have read/watched interviews from various developers that claim the same thing. Game play and level design are priority and story/script are made to work around it. This may not be the case as much with sequels to well established IP but I would image it still happens there to an extent as well.
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Old Jul 25, 2015, 11:16 PM   #192
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It makes perfect business sense, and therefore is almost entirely likely to be true. Why spend money to make money when you can rely on others to do it for you?
Makes so much sense my head asploded. Wow, Gabe, way to go with Steam.
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Old Jul 26, 2015, 03:12 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Exposed View Post
Are you sure about this? Seems really amateurish.

I believe a big budget game will have everything fleshed out down to the detail before any actual programming and game building even begins. Changes occur during development, but I think the story and the game script need to be set in stone before development begins.

Maybe smaller studios would wing it like that, but I can't imagine a game like Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, or Witcher 3 where the story/script is "made to fit the situation by the level designers". In fact I read somewhere from a developer that said "writing the game" often take longer than the actual game building itself.
Yes I'm sure about this it's how it works, they all work on it at the same time, you only have a general overlay of it all when you start to work on a game.

Script is never set in stone, a lot gets changed or completely cut. Story you have a general idea, like shepard goes to the council to warn against the reaper, but to begin with its nothing more than a 2 page section stating major events,nothing descriptive.
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Old Jul 26, 2015, 03:18 AM   #194
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Someone responded.
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Old Jul 26, 2015, 06:44 AM   #195
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There is no bigger story to Half Life. It was widely apparent in the amateur story telling of HL2 and even worse story telling in its episodes.

The only reason HL2 story was praised is because it had a stupid dog in it who catches ball. Something that appeals to people's emotions. Everything else about the game was driven due to atmosphere and not really due to the story.
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Old Jul 26, 2015, 02:39 PM   #196
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Yes I'm sure about this it's how it works, they all work on it at the same time, you only have a general overlay of it all when you start to work on a game.

Script is never set in stone, a lot gets changed or completely cut. Story you have a general idea, like shepard goes to the council to warn against the reaper, but to begin with its nothing more than a 2 page section stating major events,nothing descriptive.
This would make sense for a first person shooter, like in your HL example.

Mass Effect used a high profile lead writer to build the game world. I don't think this example applies to Mass Effect. Half Life is a linear shooter where level design is more important.

I would think games like Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, Witcher etc is a matter of "We have our game design, now we need an engine to build it."

Unlike Half Life, Wolfenstein, Rage, etc... where "lets see what levels our engine can build and slap a story on it."
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But hey, let us not forget that while you bemoan about how Hollywood is bending over backwards for that market, you're also asking them to simultaneously consider the 'delicate' sensibilities of those state side who need to see a flag plastered all over the place like some Michael Bay movie barfed into another equally worse Michael Bay movie that then **** into the mouth of the team who designs the Call of Duty campaigns with all of their red, white and blue awesomeness with such an overly large boner for America that one does not need to actually 'fly' to the moon, they simply could tight rope on top if it. And if you're concerned about whether or not that penis is strong enough to be load bearing for such a journey, you forget that what fills all of those engorged crevices is freedom.
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Old Jul 26, 2015, 03:46 PM   #197
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It's standard game development process for 95% of large game.

Many games use high profile writers. They don't design the entire game before the engine/level design get's underway. They make the universe and the Lore of a game if they have a specific vision, which is put into a treatment, however it's never final until the game goes Gold, nor is it heavily detailed.

Just because a open world game is less linear doesn't mean it's not done exactly the same way as non linear games. Game design changes as a game progresses in development, when they realise things they wanted can't be done, or things they didn't think about can suddenly be done.

A write/designer makes a treatment for a game, in the case of Bioware with Mass Effect they would have a treatment that says what the game is about, humans defending space against a threat (the reapers), and the different races within the universe, Geth, Turians etc, along with a few major story events/ideas.

They would say they want it to be a 3rd person RPG, it will have vehicles for planet exploration etc, but it would never have the script, it would only have the major events (and even then events in a story get's added during development).

It's never a do this, then do this, everything get's worked on at the same time, linear development doesn't exist.

To summarise, they have a Document called Mass Effect Treatment, it contains the basics like races, summary of what the game is going to be, what the story will be about, they then look at if it's feasible, what engine they will use, a business strategy with market research because no Publisher will green light a product without one ,at least not the likes of EA.

They will then get their team to work on engines creating what is essentially very VERY rough gameplay demo's with placeholder art, while the art team creates the storyboards with the writer, and they also concept things like the design of the aliens, weapons, the levels for the 3D art team to work on, everything get's moved around, with leaders of each department making sure everything is being coordinated etc.

The story get's written at the same time as this, so does the script, everything is worked on at the same time, be it story, art, coding, anything, then at the very end they polish it all up until they reach the deadline and either the game is ready to ship (in the publishers eyes) or the game get's delayed because it's too unfinished/broken.
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Old Jul 27, 2015, 08:27 AM   #198
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It's standard game development process for 95% of large game. .....

.
That does make sense when you stop and think about it. Even within games that are extremely story driven like TLoU, the actual story itself is fairly basic. Easier to put the player into a variety of different gameplay situations and let their imagination fill in the blanks,
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 12:35 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran View Post
It makes perfect business sense, and therefore is almost entirely likely to be true. Why spend money to make money when you can rely on others to do it for you?
Using that logic, I guess we shouldn't expect ANY more games from Valve that aren't based around micro-transactions.
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 03:36 AM   #200
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Long podcast, but they cover most of what has been discussed in the thread since the HL3 segment on The Know.
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 05:33 AM   #201
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Everybody on this forum needs to see this video, and not because of the half life 3 topic.
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 01:39 PM   #202
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Maybe I'm missing something, but why do I need to watch a bunch of dudes as they stare into a computer screen (with one of them actually playing an unrelated game) and talk about random gaming things for more than an hour?
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 01:46 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by globalist View Post
Maybe I'm missing something, but why do I need to watch a bunch of dudes staring into a computer screen (with one of them actually playing an unrelated game) and talk about random gaming things for more than an hour?
Because watching idiots on youtube is how all the gamer nerds spend their time these days.
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 02:21 PM   #204
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That's the new generation of gamers. They watch other people play instead of playing themselves.
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 03:35 PM   #205
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It's also a podcast - I listened to it while I was cycling yesterday, but it's easier to link the YT link than the podcast.
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 04:25 PM   #206
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That's the new generation of gamers. They watch other people play instead of playing themselves.
It's so weird, I have my Steam Broadcast set to open and while playing Dead Rising 3 I often have 3-5 viewers...
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 04:57 PM   #207
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I watch others play when I want to get a real world idea of what a game is like, and if I should get it.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me and a much better way than checking out some biased review.
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 05:02 PM   #208
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I find it stupid to watch others play. Especially the language is unbearable in the videos. Everyone thinks it is cool to say expletives.
A review/preview or impressions video of 5-6 mins is the Max I ever watched anyone play.

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Old Aug 1, 2015, 05:12 PM   #209
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It's OK to watch a playthrough, not a bunch of 20-somethings playing a kids game and talking about random stuff for an hour, while the majority of the screen is just them staring off camera.
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Old Aug 1, 2015, 06:23 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War View Post
I watch others play when I want to get a real world idea of what a game is like, and if I should get it.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me and a much better way than checking out some biased review.
I'm not talking about that. For example in my school I often see people watching twitch, people playing the game they play at home. Then in chat they tell those twitchers what they're doing wrong. I just don't get it.
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