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Old Aug 5, 2015, 12:20 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ View Post
That's why people used to be able to make a fair living roofing or working at a farm.

I work in enough greenhouses to see enough skilled illegals that if they had the options the rest of us do would be making more money elsewhere. Meanwhile the owners make a killing.

Who's going to break their ass at a farm when they can make similar money at a much easier job? You're either very condescending or ignorant if you think that modern agriculture is an unskilled profession. Yes, like any other trade there are people at the bottom.
Hey now, farming and agriculture ain't no joke. It might be hard work that doesn't pay the best, but you can't beat the feeling of reaping a damn fine crop, or getting top dollar for your hogs. I've worked on farms, and I don't regret it. Here lately, I've been mowing fields for baling hay. It's fulfilling to some folks...until you hit those yellow jackets.

And then there's the farmers' daughters. Ever chase one through a corn field? They know how to grow 'em.
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All I am envisioning right now is the General Lee car with no paint, Cheetos stuffed into the gas tank, and coming out the tail pipe, in a huge pool of Jello :p
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 12:27 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by swingline View Post
A company can pay their employees whatever they choose and, conversely, employees are free to leave if they think their compensation is unfair.

You clowns are acting like the CEO is picking your pockets to pay some receptionist $70,000.
I left a job about 8 years ago because the VP was paying hot admins the same he was paying educated, skilled workers like myself. I approached him about it, he shrugged his shoulders.

I felt like he was picking my pockets, so I left as did most of the other guys. Within a year his wife left him and the company cratered. My buddy ****ed his ex-wife and the his high paid secretaries disappeared.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 12:49 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by switchAMG View Post
I left a job about 8 years ago because the VP was paying hot admins the same he was paying educated, skilled workers like myself. I approached him about it, he shrugged his shoulders.

I felt like he was picking my pockets, so I left as did most of the other guys. Within a year his wife left him and the company cratered. My buddy ****ed his ex-wife and the his high paid secretaries disappeared.
Well within your rights as a worker.

Just like it's management's right to run a business poorly. I wish more of my competitors would do it.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 12:50 PM   #94
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My buddy ****ed his ex-wife and the his high paid secretaries disappeared.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 12:54 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by CoolNitro View Post
2 left because the minimum pay rise that didn't affect them made them feel less important because lower skilled workers got paid almost as much as them...

I call for internet justice to slap the crap out of those two and insure they never get paid more then anyone else.
Indeed. Given how bad the job market is, you'd think they'd be simply happy enough to have one.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 01:57 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by swingline View Post
Well within your rights as a worker.

Just like it's management's right to run a business poorly. I wish more of my competitors would do it.
100% agree, just do not agree with your "not picking pockets" comments -- if I am getting $50/hr and the Janitor is getting $50/hr I see that as $25/hr not in my pocket.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 01:58 PM   #97
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He was one of the guys that left, so he took great pleasure in dropping **** you pay me loads on the ex-boss' ex-wife.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 01:59 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by switchAMG View Post
100% agree, just do not agree with your "not picking pockets" comments -- if I am getting $50/hr and the Janitor is getting $50/hr I see that as $25/hr not in my pocket.
Re-read what I wrote.

I thought it was clear who I was referring to.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 02:11 PM   #99
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Re-read what I wrote.

I thought it was clear who I was referring to.
I apologize, I didn't read much before your comment.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 03:12 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Sasquach View Post
depends on what the team is working towards.....
and if there is any background to the names in the hat.

What if the goal is to make music?
What if none of the people in the college pool have any musical background/taste/talent while some of the non college grads do?
and what if you just so happened to go straight to the college pool because you felt they were a superior selection because grads?

What if you were starting a automative shop?
The college grad you picked out of the hat has knowledge of mechanical design and engineering of engine parts, but doesn't know jacksquat about changing his oil?
The college dropout/non grad just so happens to fix cars with his uncle or dad or someone in his spare time?
Don't assume that because someone doesn't have a college degree that they have great musical or mechanical talents.

I suspect that your college grad population will have greater knowledge and skill in virtually every subject than your non-college grad population.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 03:17 PM   #101
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Don't assume that because someone doesn't have a college degree that they have great musical or mechanical talents.

I suspect that your college grad population will have greater knowledge and skill in virtually every subject than your non-college grad population.
lol what? This is probably the most RETARDED thing I've ever read.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 03:33 PM   #102
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Don't assume that because someone doesn't have a college degree that they have great musical or mechanical talents.

I suspect that your college grad population will have greater knowledge and skill in virtually every subject than your non-college grad population.
I don't think this is necessarily true, there are many ways to become knowledgeable and skilled, college is just one of them. There are also plenty of dumbass college grads.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 03:46 PM   #103
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I suspect that your college grad population will have greater knowledge and skill in virtually every subject than your non-college grad population.


Some of the most intelligent, knowledgeable people I know never had a post secondary education and some of the most idiotic, illogical people I know have two engineering degrees and an MBA.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 03:47 PM   #104
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Don't assume that because someone doesn't have a college degree that they have great musical or mechanical talents.

I suspect that your college grad population will have greater knowledge and skill in virtually every subject than your non-college grad population.
Do the college graduates that you interact with all have similar backgrounds and jobs?
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 04:24 PM   #105
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It's interesting to note that one of the people that quit was someone who was only making $41,000 and got bumped to $50,000 (as part of the phased salary increase).

http://www.businessinsider.com/dan-p...s-leave-2015-7


"Gravity's web developer, Grant Moran, 29, had similar concerns. While his own salary saw a bump — to $50,000, up from $41,000, in the first stage of the raise — he worried the new policy didn't reward work ethic. "Now the people who were just clocking in and out were making the same as me," he tells The Times. "It shackles high performers to less motivated team members."

He also didn't like that his salary was now so public, thanks to the media attention, and he worried that if he got used to the salary boost, he might never leave to pursue his ultimate goal of moving to a digital company. Like McMaster, Moran opted to leave"
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 04:33 PM   #106
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I have to say that guy is kind of a moron.

Sure, crappy worker is getting paid the same as you but for how long? In a company where wages are set high there is going to be an expectation of hard work/performance. If employees don't meet those standards they are eliminated as I am sure there would be plenty eager to get such a sweet deal to replace him.

The other reason he gave has nothing to do with the company and more with him. "Boohoo I am afraid I would get too comfortable and not seek out new opportunities. I eventually want to work somewhere else anyway." Piss off dude.

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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:07 PM   #107
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lol what? This is probably the most RETARDED thing I've ever read.
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Originally Posted by switchAMG View Post


Some of the most intelligent, knowledgeable people I know never had a post secondary education and some of the most idiotic, illogical people I know have two engineering degrees and an MBA.
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Originally Posted by swingline View Post
Do the college graduates that you interact with all have similar backgrounds and jobs?
I'm not saying that all college grads are smarter than any non-college grads. There are plenty of brilliant & successful people who never went to college, and there are lots of ways that people learn stuff.

However, you will find plenty of college grads who also play music and work on cars. You will also find plenty of non-college grads who can't do either. You can't just assume that because someone didn't go to college, that they automatically have knowledge and skills that college grads don't.

I'm saying that on average, college graduates will have more knowledge and skills than non-college graduates... and that it'll be hard to find specific knowledge or skills that non-graduates hold above that of graduates.

The fact that you know a couple of smart/successful people who didn't go to college does not refute my point. Anecdotes don't disprove statistics (not that I've provided statistics).
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:19 PM   #108
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I think it was a bad idea anyway to make a change just based off of a study. The study probably didn't provide enough detail about why people making 70K were happy. Was it because of the pay amount? Was it the type of work they did? Was it because they worked their way up to it and felt a sense of accomplishment? Was it because they were paid better than a certain percentage of people? Without knowing the psychological or sociological underpinnings it's hard to be sure that raising everyone to 70K would really improve people's happiness.

The other thing was, it didn't sound like people at the company were that badly paid in the first place. I think setting a lower, but still decent minimum wage and upping everyone else's salary slightly would have been a better strategy.

And not considering the implications to himself by cutting his own salary was just dumb. I think it's great if he wants to cut his salary and spread it around, but it wasn't necessary to cut it all the way to 70K. There's no reason that specifically would make him happier.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:25 PM   #109
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Do the college graduates that you interact with all have similar backgrounds and jobs?
I have a masters degree in human-computer interaction from one of the best schools in the country. I currently design websites and applications for various silicon valley tech companies. I must not have any other knowledge or skills right?

You know some other things I can do?
  • Operate a forklift. (Worked in a warehouse for a year)
  • Operate nearly any machine in an industrial metal shop. (2 years as a machinist making truck parts at Freightliner)
  • Pour a foundation, frame, insulate, drywall & roof a house. (I don't do plumbing or electrical)
  • Load a UPS truck. (spent a year at UPS)
  • Paint apartment complexes. (2 summers in jr college)
  • Organize and operate a retail store. (Managed a Game Crazy for a year)
  • Drive a tractor, dig a ditch, wash pigs, etc. (Worked part time for a local family farm during the 2001 recession).

Sure there's some kids who hit the college track straight after high school and don't learn many labor skills, but there's plenty of us who had to work our way through our younger years and carry those skills with us.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:27 PM   #110
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I'm saying that on average, college graduates will have more knowledge and skills than non-college graduates... and that it'll be hard to find specific knowledge or skills that non-graduates hold above that of graduates.
I still don't buy this statement. More often than not, people that spend a decade with their heads buried in textbooks lose the time to learn/experience applicable life skills and knowledge.

The term "book smart" was not created for no reason.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:29 PM   #111
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I'm not saying that all college grads are smarter than any non-college grads. There are plenty of brilliant & successful people who never went to college, and there are lots of ways that people learn stuff.

However, you will find plenty of college grads who also play music and work on cars. You will also find plenty of non-college grads who can't do either. You can't just assume that because someone didn't go to college, that they automatically have knowledge and skills that college grads don't.

I'm saying that on average, college graduates will have more knowledge and skills than non-college graduates... and that it'll be hard to find specific knowledge or skills that non-graduates hold above that of graduates.

The fact that you know a couple of smart/successful people who didn't go to college does not refute my point. Anecdotes don't disprove statistics (not that I've provided statistics).
I think the issue to keep in mind is that people don't actually become smarter by going to college. That's more of an innate aspect of your genetics, and maybe early upbringing.

Someone who is intelligent and motivated to learn can become quite educated and knowledgeable whether they go to college or not. And they probably will be more knowledgeable than someone who is less intelligent and/or less motivated that did go to college.

However, you're probably right that on average college graduates are smarter and more knowledgeable than non-college graduates. Whether that's due to college itself, or based on the selection of people who go to college is another issue. The fact is in our society just learning on your own simply isn't viable in a lot of fields, not because you can't learn the subject matter on your own, but because without official certification no one is going to hire you.

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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:31 PM   #112
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I still don't buy this statement. More often than not, people that spend a decade with their heads buried in textbooks lose the time to learn/experience applicable life skills and knowledge.

The term "book smart" was not created for no reason.
Just out of curiosity, do you have a degree? Also, when did you attain it.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:33 PM   #113
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I still don't buy this statement. More often than not, people that spend a decade with their heads buried in textbooks lose the time to learn/experience applicable life skills and knowledge.

The term "book smart" was not created for no reason.
I've ran into plenty of dumb people who didn't go to college too. So it's not like everyone who didn't go to college is some sort of modern day Zen master who is wise in the ways of the world.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:44 PM   #114
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I think the issue to keep in mind is that people don't actually become smarter by going to college. That's more of an innate aspect of your genetics, and maybe early upbringing.

Someone who is intelligent and motivated to learn can become quite educated and knowledgeable whether they go to college or not. And they probably will be more knowledgeable than someone who is less intelligent and/or less motivated.

However, you're probably right that on average college graduates are smarter and more knowledgeable than non-college graduates.
Tons of misconceptions there, the brain is constantly evolving based on experience. You are not "set" by genetics. You may get an starting point but it is not deterministic unless you have a severe disability, which is a different thing altogether. Intelligence, skill and understanding certainly increase with practice (just not IQ; I hope you don't think of IQ = inteligence).

It all depends on your area of expertise and what is required for your position. Statistically speaking Subcog is right in a sense. Attaining a degree speaks towards self control and goal management. These are characteristics that are correlated with what society considers "successful," happy, well-rounded people that in general tend to earn higher salaries.

This is not to say a person without a degree necessarily lacks such qualities. In fact, some exhibit an extraordinary level of self control and goal management; like building a business, providing services for a niche sector, becoming highly specialized in a particular area, building relationships and networking, etc.

It is just that statistically speaking you are more likely to find someone who fits those traits from someone who has a degree because it poses a barrier to entree.

Alternatively, areas which do not require a degree (like commercial art), require a portfolio which is a barrier to entry. This is with the goal of proving, once again, those specific traits of seeing things through, self control, skill-set etc.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:46 PM   #115
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I read about this earlier, I thought the wage seemed a bit too high for everyone, although kudos for trying

personally I find you get dumb people, and smart people from college or not, but having a fancy college looks good on paper and from my experience, it just means a license to talk down to people who haven't got said degree
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 05:50 PM   #116
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Just out of curiosity, do you have a degree? Also, when did you attain it.
I have a degree in computer science -- my current role couldn't be further from that though. My story is a little different though, I went to university when I was 18 but I was too interested in ****ing girls and doing drugs. When I was 19 I went to the oilfield and worked on the drilling rigs for 5 years. One day I was up to my armpits in caustic drilling mud and decided it was time to go back to school. I dropped my pipe wrench and signed up for school.

Maybe that is why I am biased.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 06:15 PM   #117
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I think the issue to keep in mind is that people don't actually become smarter by going to college. That's more of an innate aspect of your genetics, and maybe early upbringing.
I understand what you're saying, but I disagree a bit. Someone who spends 4-8 years on focused study (whether in a school environment or not) definitely becomes smarter than they would be otherwise. So non-college people who spend the same time on focused study of their chosen craft will come out equally smart as their college peers... however many non-college people don't actually spend that time well. Many people end up in dead-end jobs where they don't learn much of anything. Whereas the vast majority of college graduates did in fact learn something in school (although there are exceptions).

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Someone who is intelligent and motivated to learn can become quite educated and knowledgeable whether they go to college or not. And they probably will be more knowledgeable than someone who is less intelligent and/or less motivated that did go to college.
I absolutely agree.

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However, you're probably right that on average college graduates are smarter and more knowledgeable than non-college graduates. Whether that's due to college itself, or based on the selection of people who go to college is another issue. The fact is in our society just learning on your own simply isn't viable in a lot of fields, not because you can't learn the subject matter on your own, but because without official certification no one is going to hire you.
I think you're hitting on the right point here. It's less about college or not, as much as it is about motivated or not. There's lots of exceptions, but in general motivated people tend to go to college.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 07:30 PM   #118
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I have a masters degree in human-computer interaction from one of the best schools in the country. I currently design websites and applications for various silicon valley tech companies. I must not have any other knowledge or skills right?
Those are your words, not mine. Your prior experience is not remotely typical of the "college grad" demographic you brought up earlier.

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Sure there's some kids who hit the college track straight after high school and don't learn many labor skills, but there's plenty of us who had to work our way through our younger years and carry those skills with us.
If it were just "some kids" the job market wouldn't be what it is today.

If the peers and coworkers in your field are all cut from the same cloth, your perspective is easily skewed.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 07:33 PM   #119
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Keep the political commentary out of this thread or it's going to get moved to P&R.

We should be able to keep the discussion going without doing that.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 07:40 PM   #120
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My take on this is that I can understand people higher up being pissed, because their wages didn't go up. The CEO should have kept his yap shut and just quietly increased peoples pay. Of course, this would get around the office quickly.
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