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Old Aug 1, 2007, 11:19 PM   #1
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Jack & Coke
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Default Developers hitting limits with DVD

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/07/...ptions-li.html

Quote:
Bizarre Creations has been forced to change Project Gotham Racing 4's lighting options due to the size limitations of a DVD.
This was actually discussed in another thread (where Rockstar complained about the lack of space on a DVD for GTA4).

Here is the actual post by the developer:
http://www.bizarrecreations.com/foru...=30&t=14802&p=

Quote:
You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD
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Old Aug 1, 2007, 11:27 PM   #2
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They've already responded to it:
Quote:
As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...

When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.

The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.

Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!

We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.
http://www.bizarrecreations.com/arti...rticle_id=5257

It was not an issue to begin with. More FUD from our resident FUD machine.
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Old Aug 1, 2007, 11:36 PM   #3
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You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD


ok sounds like you hit a limit there ...can you clarify that point for us please ?

DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys


but earlier you said ...
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Old Aug 1, 2007, 11:47 PM   #4
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Just a dev mouthing off about a theoretical. It's pretty clear it wasn't an issue to begin with. There never was a planned explicit and fixed night/day setting for each map. Nothing was cut and they haven't hit size contraints with DVD.
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Old Aug 1, 2007, 11:58 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Unicron View Post

ok sounds like you hit a limit there ...can you clarify that point for us please ?

but earlier you said ...
http://kotaku.com/gaming/spin-contro...gr4-284936.php

Quote:
On July 27, a Bizarre Creations staffer posted on their forums that the upcoming Project Gotham Racing 4 won't have day and night versions of their tracks in the game because "Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city."

Seems pretty straight forward, right? But when people sorta went quasi-ape-**** pointing out, rightfully so, that perhaps the medium (DVD) is holding back the game, Bizarre Creations cranked up their spin machine and issued a response under the befuddling headline "Wrong end of stick been grasped?"
Clearly someone who actually worked on the game found DVD9 limiting and then they got a call from PR freaking out.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 12:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack & Coke View Post


Clearly someone who actually worked on the game found DVD9 limiting and then they got a call from PR freaking out.
Clearly this is what someone would claim what happened when they're looking for FUD to post.

You literally scour the internet for every juicy morsel and tidbit that backs up your extremely jaded point of view. It's about time for a new hobby.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 01:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack & Coke View Post
http://kotaku.com/gaming/spin-contro...gr4-284936.php



Clearly someone who actually worked on the game found DVD9 limiting and then they got a call from PR freaking out.
you never cease to amaze me. I guess I could make another jab about sony paychecks, but what's the point?
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 01:48 AM   #8
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 04:11 AM   #9
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Did the OP even look at the cropsheet

if thats the level of detail we are gonna get on DVD9 I don't care if there is no night, all those different weather types will create much more different types of driving!

Here is one scene I particularly liked but I couldve picked any!

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Old Aug 2, 2007, 08:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack & Coke View Post
Clearly someone who actually worked on the game found DVD9 limiting and then they got a call from PR freaking out.
So you work for Bizarre as well as Sony? Wow, must say I am impressed....
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 08:33 AM   #11
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J&C always is good for a laugh
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 08:43 AM   #12
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Systems have limits? *shock*

For as long as PC games continue being shipped on single DVDs, I don't see it becoming a problem for the 360. No matter the system, there are going to be cutbacks due to limitations. This is no different to a developer saying they wanted to use 4096x4096 textures for everything but current video cards don't have enough RAM or saying they wanted to make a better renderer but the RSX couldn't handle it.

You get what you pay for. For a 400$ system in 2005, those were the breaks.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 09:13 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hordaktheman View Post
For as long as PC games continue being shipped on single DVDs, I don't see it becoming a problem for the 360.
The difference here being that the PC game will be installed to a harddrive where it is held in its uncompressed format and takes up significantly more space, but is quicker to access.

Thanks to the crazy (or inspired depending on perspective) decision by MS to not include the HD as standard, all games have to be streamed from the DVD and uncompressed on the fly, which comes with some processing overheads.

However I agree with everything else u said, systems have limitations which developers just have to deal with.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 09:21 AM   #14
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For as long as PC games continue being shipped on single DVDs, I don't see it becoming a problem for the 360.
PC games are compressed and installed to HDD, not streamed from DVD.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 09:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by aop View Post
PC games are compressed and installed to HDD, not streamed from DVD.
That doesn't really matter. Both a console game on a DVD and a PC game on a DVD are compressed on the disc. Whether the game is installed on a HDD or streamed and decompressed on the fly is irrelevant. We're talking about reaching (or in this case not actually reaching) the space limitation of DVD. I don't know of a single PC game that has needed more than one DVD for installation, but if there is one you can point it out if you know.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 10:07 AM   #16
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DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys

Translation:
It's still a fun experience with the crappy lighting
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 10:15 AM   #17
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IMO DVD will be enough for this generation games, but there will be a few games that need more space. Also for huge areas it is a lot easier for the developer to program a streaming engine with no compression and you wont get as much CPU penalty, because the data doesn't need to be decompressed.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 10:42 AM   #18
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I feel that RAM constraints will be an issue this generation before DVD size limitation will be. Look at Gears of War, and how they said that the 512 MB of RAM was completely used.

I think that most games will be able to fit onto one DVD9, but I'm sure some will need the extra space that BR or HD would provide. For instance, RPG's.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 10:52 AM   #19
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Well 2 major developers have already complained and a lot of games for the PS3 are well over 9 GB.

I think it will happen that some games for the 360 will require a hard drive. That way they could install to it and expand just like on the PC.

I know I have a few games on my computer that when installed are well beyond the size of a DVD. (I wish I could get WoW + BC all on one DVD)
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 11:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack & Coke View Post
Well 2 major developers have already complained and a lot of games for the PS3 are well over 9 GB.

I think it will happen that some games for the 360 will require a hard drive. That way they could install to it and expand just like on the PC.

I know I have a few games on my computer that when installed are well beyond the size of a DVD. (I wish I could get WoW + BC all on one DVD)
PS3 games are over 9gigs because they are loaded with duplicate data to speed up loading times due to the painfully slow BR drive
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 12:29 PM   #21
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I think its quite obvious by now that BD is most definitely NOT needed for HD gaming. 95% of multiplatform games look better on 360 with DVD9 versus BD25 on PS3.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 01:19 PM   #22
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Ask yourself this, which turns away more developers - the 9 GB limit on 360, or the PS3's price tag and poor sales?
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 01:29 PM   #23
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I found the developer' "correction" to be interesting.

They could not create a new texture set for different times of day due to size limitations on DVD9. They found another solution and in the end no content was cut, but their options were limited by DVD9. That's a fact.

Regarding the whole DVD vs. Blu-ray for gaming debate ..

No I don't believe it's "required" per se. Any Xbox developer will design a game that will fit on DVD, if partway through the project the team realizes it won't fit, someone will be looking for another job.

PS3 developers will design their games appropriately for the 25 or 50GB available to them. The ridiculously short HS demo is 1GB, the 1 level Uncharted playable demo at Gamer's Day will not fit on a DVD etc. Anyone who says that giving developers MORE storage, more resources for games is somehow a bad thing is either flat out wrong or has some sort of irrational hatred of the Blu-ray format (did the BDA run over your dog or something ?).

Blue-ray won't increase texture quality (both systems have the same total RAM) but it will allow for more texture variety (less reused textures). Look at some current games and look at often the same texture is re-used throughout the game.

We'll only see that on PS3 exclusive titles as multi-plat will be designed with DVD in mind. If us PS3 owners are lucky, they'll give us bonus materials, enhanced sound and cutscene quality on the PS3 version.

Getting youtube quality game cutscenes on a BRD is just pathetic.

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Old Aug 2, 2007, 02:05 PM   #24
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I know I have a few games on my computer that when installed are well beyond the size of a DVD. (I wish I could get WoW + BC all on one DVD)
my ut2004 folder won't even fit on a bluray disk.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 02:12 PM   #25
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and in terms of space limits, I'd be fine if m$ started allowing hd only games, or even hd-dvd only games (once the price gets below $100, maybe in another year?). It wouldn't bother me if m$ required something like that for certain games, as long as its reasonably inexpensive to upgrade (like within' $100).
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 04:37 PM   #26
Dandingo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack & Coke View Post
http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/07/...ptions-li.html

This was actually discussed in another thread (where Rockstar complained about the lack of space on a DVD for GTA4).

Here is the actual post by the developer:
http://www.bizarrecreations.com/foru...=30&t=14802&p=
Welcome to last week............this was already discussed, also last week. Jack & Coke sucks ass!

BTW, I am now an owner of a PS3 and the textures in Resistance are horrid, the draw distance is decent but when someone compared it to HL2 they were spot on IMO.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 05:37 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Player_1 View Post
The difference here being that the PC game will be installed to a harddrive where it is held in its uncompressed format and takes up significantly more space, but is quicker to access.
I don't really agree with this statement. PC games like HL-2 or Doom 3 use compressed files such as *.pak files for Doom 3 that are highly compressed & extracted on the fly all the time. I agree that the HD doing this task is quicker though than a DVD drive. I just thought it was worth pointing out.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 06:01 PM   #28
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People just don't get the point that by putting Blu-Ray onto the PS3 - they gained disk space for developers, but at a huge cost - poor sales. Developers may care about space, but they care 10x more about how many units their game is going to sell.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 06:19 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Dandingo View Post
BTW, I am now an owner of a PS3 and the textures in Resistance are horrid, the draw distance is decent but when someone compared it to HL2 they were spot on IMO.
How far into the game are you in ?

I was disappointed in the early levels as well ... the game starts to look noticeably better especially once you get into the Chimaera bases.

Gameplay is fun though, and I generally dislike shooters.
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Old Aug 2, 2007, 08:22 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Unicron View Post
How far into the game are you in ?

I was disappointed in the early levels as well ... the game starts to look noticeably better especially once you get into the Chimaera bases.

Gameplay is fun though, and I generally dislike shooters.
My comments are based solely off the demo.....so take them with a grain of salt. If you say it improves I will take your word for it, kind of sick with shooters for the moment.......I haven't even finished Lost Planet on my 360 and I had that since it came out. Based off the demo it does seem intense.......kind of hard too.
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