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Old Jun 20, 2013, 09:45 AM   #211
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Sound_Card
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy View Post
The future is the internet, if you dont like the internet then move into a cave with your cds, vhs tapes and chant to your old gods around your fire

Everything is going digital and we want instant access to everything, everywhere.
We are streaming movies, tv, sports and music
We are buying digital games on pc, smartphone, tablets etc
We are uploading our files to the cloud

Many people dont even have a dvd drive in their pc anymore

It makes everything easier and better.

But oh noes it wants to check my game through the net once every 24 hours? EVERYONE GO CRAZY.

The government ****ing us on our rights every day? who the **** cares DONT TOUCH MA BLU RAY GAMES! I want to build a cave out of my huge pile of game boxes!
....what?


I asked a question. Which exact part is the future? What is the gain in this future? You are not telling me that. You are essentially telling me I'm an analogue fanboy which is nonsense. I'm not sure what is so futuristic about losing options. Not optimistic at all on the prospect of the idea my console is being integrated bit by bit into a place other than my house. Where the games are bought, and rendered. Where my console is more like a TV set top box, acting as the interface between the client and the actual hosting/computing. Whats next after that? Subscription plans to keep that box in my house? I mean technically that is already happening. The xbox is pretty much useless without live gold.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 10:20 AM   #212
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 10:34 AM   #213
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I'm just happy I'll still be able to lend out my games to friends and/or resell over the net again now. I don't resell to Gamestop, BTW.

Its also great that the system is no longer region locked, and requiring the 24 hr online check for those people that would be affected by that. I'm not just concerned with the policies that only affect me in a negative way. I believe if something's obviously not right, all people should recognize that even if it doesn't affect them. Just how I feel.

But the new proposed restrictions on used games was the #1 problem I had with the new Xbox. Now that they've rethought and changed it back, I'm again maybe considering getting an Xbox One, eventually. I still wont be an early adopter, and will still wait for some exclusive games that interest me. Couldn't care less for the media center type features or Kinect and will hold out hope for a stripped down version that's only for gaming without the TV feature crap, and without the Kinect add-on.

Furthermore I'd like to reiterate I am definitely happy with MS' Xbox division now for making this change, and wont just find something else to hate on them for no reason like some are doing. I don't feel they are backtracking, or wrong at all in this. They at some point realized their new proposed policies were an overall bad business move and/or bad for the consumer, and they did the right thing by ditching them. It would have been far worse IMO if they stayed the course with these unpopular new policies, regardless of how great the "future" they envisioned was going to be. I think its best they keep the DRM policies the same for now and go back and rethink their vision of the future as well as how to convey it to the public which they did a terrible initial job of. Maybe a good way to start would be not to force it on us, but rather find a way to give consumers the option of choosing from both the old and new policies to ease us into it.

Sucks to hear some people may be out of work due to the rolling back of policies though. But perhaps they are positions working on projects that never should have been there in the first place. Here's to hoping they will find something new quickly.

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Old Jun 20, 2013, 10:50 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badboy View Post
The future is the internet, if you dont like the internet then move into a cave with your cds, vhs tapes and chant to your old gods around your fire

Everything is going digital and we want instant access to everything, everywhere.
We are streaming movies, tv, sports and music
We are buying digital games on pc, smartphone, tablets etc
We are uploading our files to the cloud

Many people dont even have a dvd drive in their pc anymore

It makes everything easier and better.

But oh noes it wants to check my game through the net once every 24 hours? EVERYONE GO CRAZY.

The government ****ing us on our rights every day? who the **** cares DONT TOUCH MA BLU RAY GAMES! I want to build a cave out of my huge pile of game boxes!
Yes, that's very nice. How does requiring a device to be connected constantly to the internet advance the future of gaming? Why not simply allow that console to connect to the internet, and while it is connected, gain the advantages that connection to the internet brings with it, while still allowing that console to play offline in the event that the connection goes out for whatever reason?

People make the connection between Steam (great service, btw) and the Xbox One. There is one very important distinction. I can play my single player steam games offline if my connection goes out. That's all we were asking for.

This is a good move for M$ in every possible way. They were losing massive amounts of sales because of a move that potential customers did not like. This latest move opens up the potential customer base to those who previously were excluded, such as those who live in rural areas, foreign countries where the internet is sub-par, and those who travel.

Microsoft now has the ability to sell more consoles, and as a result, more games. Customers still have the ability to buy titles the day of release via Xbox Live if they choose, and if they have a sufficient internet connection, can benefit from all of the features of Xbox Live without the inconvenience of watching their $500 console turn into a brick if their internet goes kaput.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 10:51 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by jimmt View Post
.
Going to have to digest that for a bit, but seems a very reasonable assessment.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:02 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by DeathKnight View Post
No it's not. It's about people moving the goal posts to whatever suits their position. Don't think the first part of my post up there was aimed at you (I didn't directly address you). I simply used your statement as a springboard to point out something rather ironic. The second part was addressed to you.
Right. Ok. Most put it in and people agreeing ti it hinges on the known reputation of the company to honor the spirit of their stuff without abusing their customers.

Microsoft has crossed that line for me with this online only bullshit and will have to win back that trust in their reputation from me.

If you can't understand this, we have nothing further to discuss.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:03 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Lupine View Post
Going to have to digest that for a bit, but seems a very reasonable assessment.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:09 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Disemboweler View Post
Yes, that's very nice. How does requiring a device to be connected constantly to the internet advance the future of gaming? Why not simply allow that console to connect to the internet, and while it is connected, gain the advantages that connection to the internet brings with it, while still allowing that console to play offline in the event that the connection goes out for whatever reason?

People make the connection between Steam (great service, btw) and the Xbox One. There is one very important distinction. I can play my single player steam games offline if my connection goes out. That's all we were asking for.

This is a good move for M$ in every possible way. They were losing massive amounts of sales because of a move that potential customers did not like. This latest move opens up the potential customer base to those who previously were excluded, such as those who live in rural areas, foreign countries where the internet is sub-par, and those who travel.

Microsoft now has the ability to sell more consoles, and as a result, more games. Customers still have the ability to buy titles the day of release via Xbox Live if they choose, and if they have a sufficient internet connection, can benefit from all of the features of Xbox Live without the inconvenience of watching their $500 console turn into a brick if their internet goes kaput.
That was a very well said post.

Of course the proposed and since retracted (rightfully so) policy of 24 hr online check wouldn't affect everyone, but its just plain wrong for anyone to just give those who are affected the shaft. Steam has shown offline mode for gaming can work fine. There's no real need for once a day online check in. Its not the future, if anything its draconian and restrictive.

We know and understand some form of DRM is necessary, but I don't agree with leaving people behind as technology moves forward. Show me policies that are seamless, consumer friendly, and work for everyone. That's the future.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:10 AM   #219
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Interesting comment piece with a suggestion as to how MS ended up where they did with Hexbox one and Win 8.

Quote:
Microsoft's got a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde personality. On the one hand it can be intensely pragmatic and rational - Windows 7 - but when it's got a new idea between its teeth that's when the beast takes over and when common sense is jettisoned - Windows 8.

When Microsoft's Hyde side is in charge, the new idea becomes everything.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06...er_of_u_turns/
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:11 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Disemboweler View Post
People make the connection between Steam (great service, btw) and the Xbox One. There is one very important distinction. I can play my single player steam games offline if my connection goes out. That's all we were asking for.
.
Pretty silly that single player xbox one games were going to be subject to such DRM. So someone that does not pay for gold and just wants to play single player games, was **** out of luck.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:45 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Disemboweler View Post
Yes, that's very nice. How does requiring a device to be connected constantly to the internet advance the future of gaming? Why not simply allow that console to connect to the internet, and while it is connected, gain the advantages that connection to the internet brings with it, while still allowing that console to play offline in the event that the connection goes out for whatever reason?

People make the connection between Steam (great service, btw) and the Xbox One. There is one very important distinction. I can play my single player steam games offline if my connection goes out. That's all we were asking for.

This is a good move for M$ in every possible way. They were losing massive amounts of sales because of a move that potential customers did not like. This latest move opens up the potential customer base to those who previously were excluded, such as those who live in rural areas, foreign countries where the internet is sub-par, and those who travel.

Microsoft now has the ability to sell more consoles, and as a result, more games. Customers still have the ability to buy titles the day of release via Xbox Live if they choose, and if they have a sufficient internet connection, can benefit from all of the features of Xbox Live without the inconvenience of watching their $500 console turn into a brick if their internet goes kaput.

First you could play offline.. it just needed to check once every 24 hours. So if your connection goes out you could still play the singel player game as normal. If you dont have internet for 24 hours then you have a bigger problem in todays world than playing a game.

Surfing rage3d requires checks all the time... If your net goes out you cant surf rage3d anymore. What you gonna do then?

They must implement those checks because of what they were set out to do with it. You could lend a digital copy, how can they know you arent lending it to 10 people at the same time and playing it yourself without checking? Because you are a good person?
Steam doesnt function as the xbox service would. Lets see how steam function if they implement their trading/lending digital copies

And they werent going to lose sales, people would have bought the xbox in drowes anyway. Wasnt it a call of duty where there was a huge backlash from players with steam groups and complaining about something? in the end almost everyone bought it at release and was seen playing it through steam.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:56 AM   #222
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yey i get to play Forza now
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:57 AM   #223
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First you could play offline.. it just needed to check once every 24 hours. So if your connection goes out you could still play the singel player game as normal. If you dont have internet for 24 hours then you have a bigger problem in todays world than playing a game.
This doesn't make any sense. Why should a game that requires NO INTERNET CONNECTION WHAT-SO-EVER have to access the Internet? There have been plenty of situations where my crappy cable service has gone on the fritz for a day or two, and since I don't watch alot of TV I wind up breaking out the Xbox to kill time. And what sort of problems should one have to worry about when they don't have Internet? Waiting for the cable guy to come and fix it?? As if that requires my full attention

Quote:
They must implement those checks because...
Because they don't trust their customers, and they can't be arse bothered to find a proper solution which would allow hard copies and DRM restricted digital copies to co-exist, thus giving consumers a proper choice.

Quote:
And they werent going to lose sales, people would have bought the xbox in drowes anyway.
When you have Sony coming onto Jimmy Fallon (ie national television) and telling consumers "Hey look at us, our system lets you share games! Theirs doesn't neener-neener" you had better believe you are going to lose ****ing sales.

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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:57 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by crash override View Post
No thanks. I prefer wearing actual clothing that actually exists rather pretending reality doesn't exist.

You meant Emperor btw, not king.

I think the analogy actually points the other way. I'm the one trying to tell folks the truth of how things work. You guys are the ones saying look at these fancy new duds Sony is wearing.

I'm the one laughing because I already know where the industry is going...and yet everyone thinks I'm the one full of crap.


It will be amusing in about 3 years to see how this works out for you folks.
Actually, I think the best "emperor's new clothes" analogy would be about DRM and consumer ownership.

Successful DRM (such as steam) creates a convincing illusion of ownership. That illusion is easily broken, by outages, botched launches, etc. Once the illusion is broken, it takes years to rebuild. However convincing the illusion is though, consumers shouldn't be fooled: As long as a publisher or media holder has the power to shut off your access, you consume media at their pleasure.

Anyone who happily subscribes to always-on or regular check-in DRM while thinking that they are in control of their media, is wearing the invisible clothes. The difference though, is that the emperor isn't stupid, and he's the one providing the invisible clothes and hoping the commoners don't notice. Problem this time was ms assumed the majority of consumers were stupid, and it turned out they weren't.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:59 AM   #225
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I would like to say that I respect Microsoft more for backtracking but in reality I just can't say that, it's fair enough that they are trying the fix the wrongs that's a +1 but they originally set the system up like as if everything was hard coded into it then they simply turn around and say that they will disable them with a simple patch.


Also I would imagine that some game developers making games for the console with it's original feature set in mind will probably be put off at the changes like just think of the game 'The Crew' it is pretty much centred around an always on connection so the over all experience of the game will be much less if players are not always available.

The thing to note though is that Sony and PS4 never set out to be anything more then a higher spec console with the option of a better online system then last gen, where as Microsoft and Xbox one tried to innovate and make something bigger and better but unfortunately also tried to force change which backfired, they are left with a system that was hyped up to have all sorts of connected features but now its back to being just a higher spec version of their last system which is almost equal to Sony.

All in all they spent god knows how much money developing and marketing a system that no longer lives up to those claims and it's all entirely their own fault.


Should they have backtracked? I personally don't think they had a choice but with that said I would have liked to see where it would have gone if they stuck with it.

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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:03 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Ciera View Post
Having a disk in the drive is a form of DRM.
I would argue that its not.

Digital Rights Management is about... ready for this?... managing your digital rights. And that doesn't mean consumers managing their own digital rights. DRM is by definition allowing a media holder to control your rights to consume media.

The disk in drive is a piracy and sharing mechanism, but it leaves the "rights management" up to the consumer. You can put the disk in your drive any time you want... no need to ask permission from the media holder. The media holder doesn't have the power to restrict your access.
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To be honest I never even found doom 3 to be scary since I have a big dick since birth.

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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:05 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
There was a choice from the start. Dont like it buy any other of the 2 consoles
The consumers exercised their choice, very vocally, and this scared the bajeezus out of ms.
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To be honest I never even found doom 3 to be scary since I have a big dick since birth.

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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:09 PM   #228
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Exactly. I am tired of the whiny little children who pretend that they can't buy something else and that MS put a gun to their head or something.

Un-f'ing-believeable.
You're correct that users vote with their wallets, and can choose to not purchase an xbox. Your mistake is expecting people to make this decision silently.

People will express themselves on top of their purchase decisions. It's wrong to demand that people just put up or shut up, and that there must be no further discussion.

There's nothing wrong with complaining that you'd like to buy a product, except for certain deal breaker features. That kind of expression is part of the whole ecosystem, and should not be silenced (even if you could).
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To be honest I never even found doom 3 to be scary since I have a big dick since birth.

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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:10 PM   #229
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I say let the fans have their XB1 strangling drm features back to see just how that family sharing plan worked in reality vs. removing all the drm crap. I bet you hear a lot of bitching afterwards. Getting tired of the back-n-forth so In the mean time I'll just buy a PS4.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:10 PM   #230
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Actually, I think the best "emperor's new clothes" analogy would be about DRM and consumer ownership.

Successful DRM (such as steam) creates a convincing illusion of ownership. That illusion is easily broken, by outages, botched launches, etc. Once the illusion is broken, it takes years to rebuild. However convincing the illusion is though, consumers shouldn't be fooled: As long as a publisher or media holder has the power to shut off your access, you consume media at their pleasure.

Anyone who happily subscribes to always-on or regular check-in DRM while thinking that they are in control of their media, is wearing the invisible clothes. The difference though, is that the emperor isn't stupid, and he's the one providing the invisible clothes and hoping the commoners don't notice. Problem this time was ms assumed the majority of consumers were stupid, and it turned out they weren't.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:12 PM   #231
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First you could play offline.. it just needed to check once every 24 hours. So if your connection goes out you could still play the singel player game as normal. If you dont have internet for 24 hours then you have a bigger problem in todays world than playing a game.

Why inconvenience those who might want to have a LAN party, or those who don't have internet fast enough? Why not make money selling consoles to those people? Believe it or not, but most people don't have the ability to single-handedly change their internet infrastructure.

Surfing rage3d requires checks all the time... If your net goes out you cant surf rage3d anymore. What you gonna do then?

I didn't pay money above what I pay for internet to be able to surf this site. It is not something I purchased. Invalid argument.

They must implement those checks because of what they were set out to do with it. You could lend a digital copy, how can they know you arent lending it to 10 people at the same time and playing it yourself without checking?

How would you lend a digital copy without internet, and therefore checks of the software? This argument makes little sense since digital copies are typically restricted to the buyer. Not only that, but how would you purchase and download a digital copy if you didn't have internet?

Because you are a good person?

I try to be.

Steam doesnt function as the xbox service would. Lets see how steam function if they implement their trading/lending digital copies

We know. Steam stomps way more ass than Xbox Live. As far as I know, Microsoft will not allow widespread trading/lending of digital copies, and neither does Steam. I have no problem with that. Strawman argument.

And they werent going to lose sales, people would have bought the xbox in drowes anyway. Wasnt it a call of duty where there was a huge backlash from players with steam groups and complaining about something? in the end almost everyone bought it at release and was seen playing it through steam.

This is an unfounded argument, and one that defies all the opinions of gamers, news coverage, and the presales of the console itself. I'm sure that some people would have bought it, but the number would have been greatly reduced had the measures been allowed to stay. Ask yourself this: why would Microsoft change their tune 4 days after the conference if they were confident that sales would have been fine with these idiotic measures in place?
Food for thought.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:12 PM   #232
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did you even read jolle's post? he basically said digital prices should be cheaper than retail. which is obvious since you need a clear incentive for people to buy in. And I'm not talking vaporware features here, i'm talking something consumers understand first and foremost, a monetary $$$ incentive. by your logic there should be a huge stigma around users who still buy CD's, that they're second-class citizens all of a sudden. That's clearly not the case. There are advantages to owning a hard copy of an album vs a digital one. And those who spend the extra $6 on average to buy the hardcopy know what it's worth to them. And likewise those who buy digital know what they're losing by paying $6 less. Give consumers more credit.
also DD is alot cheaper, since $$ isn't going to manufacturing, distribution, or retail. Some of this savings should be passed on to the consumer.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:14 PM   #233
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I'm glad the policies were reviewed but, and I may be reading too much between the lines here, the response seemed more than a little snarky and almost retributive in nature. Certainly understand how they'd feel that way, but surprised it would make it through into the public response (again, maybe I'm the only one that read it that way).
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:15 PM   #234
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but they originally set the system up like as if everything was hard coded into it then they simply turn around and say that they will disable them with a simple patch.
Sure, it may have been hard-coded into the software, but there's nothing stopping them from changing the software, which is what they're doing. The hardware itself has nothing to do with that.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:17 PM   #235
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I'm glad the policies were reviewed but, and I may be reading too much between the lines here, the response seemed more than a little snarky and almost retributive in nature. Certainly understand how they'd feel that way, but surprised it would make it through into the public response (again, maybe I'm the only one that read it that way).
Well, coming from a company who just got their ass handed to them, I'm not surprised.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 12:32 PM   #236
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Well, coming from a company who just got their ass handed to them, I'm not surprised.
They mis-calculated the brand name. Xbox is not as strong as they think it is. And the tides can easily sway in this industry.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 02:18 PM   #237
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 02:48 PM   #238
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lmao, he's probably extra embarrassed now...
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:00 PM   #239
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The software rewrite may not actually be that simple of a task. I'm no developer or software engineer, but I'd hazard a guess that it's a little more involved than just changing a variable from 1 to 0 like in a config file.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:02 PM   #240
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I somehow imagine that it isn't entirely simple. Their original plan was to use a key of some sort to register the game to an on-line database. Using that model, they wouldn't have needed to determine if the disc was an original or a copy. Reverting to the old policy means they have to figure out how to do that, if they hadn't already. Additionally, they may have to do it without making any substantial hardware changes.

I take the day one console patch as a symptom of the amount of work that needs to be done relative to the amount of time to do it.
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