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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:04 AM   #181
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crash override
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Originally Posted by Ub3r_n00b View Post
I'm sorry, but I don't see the distinction between "Don't like it, don't buy it" and what forced Microsofts decision to revamp. I'm sure it took more than a vocal minority shouting on forums for Microsoft to scrap long term plans and policies. People must have voted with their wallets and expressed why they weren't going to buy it, so they revised.

As far as shared libraries, I don't understand why its so hard to implement considering its already being done to a degree with PSN accounts. Just needs to be fine tuned to have a limited number of linked accounts instead of the limit of the number of systems your account can be on that it is now.


What feature that Sony has is even remotely similar to shared library?

I ask this while also informing you that this is not the same thing as sharing a game on your console with someone else that uses your console. Both consoles already allow that.

Shared library was about sharing games with people that were not using your console or even living in your household.

If you say account sharing, then that can already happen as well, but is never a good idea since you are held responsible for actions taken by your account if you loan it out.

Last edited by crash override : Jun 20, 2013 at 03:06 AM.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:09 AM   #182
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If you do that you'll have people angry about disc based users being treated as second class citizens. It creates the perception that disc based users are inferior.

It is an even worse route from a perception standpoint.

I mean look at your 'catering to retail' point. If MS even stepped near that logic they would be called arrogant and condescending and out of touch.
Disc based users are disc based users because of value.
The disc is usually cheaper then the download, I think even more so on consoles, atleast over here.
And you can sell the disc to get a certain amount of money back.

The previous policy entirely killed the benefits of disc, making them essentially activation codes for a DD game.

So why would people be pissed if they could get a game cheaper from their couch?
If the retail disc is cheaper when you factor in the resell value, and you plan to sell the game, the disc will still be your best value, so you buy the disc.
If the digital version is better value, you buy that.
Who are these "Disc people" that will get offended at a better deal? 56k modem users?

You´re defending MS previous stance, while contradicting it at the same time here, the whole point of that system was to make it more like Steam, move into a DD focused model, get everyone going digital, how is that less "offensive to the disc people"?
And how is instead making retail discs viable again, but incentivicing DD instead of forcing it, worse?
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:18 AM   #183
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Disc based users are disc based users because of value.
The disc is usually cheaper then the download, I think even more so on consoles, atleast over here.
And you can sell the disc to get a certain amount of money back.

The previous policy entirely killed the benefits of disc, making them essentially activation codes for a DD game.

So why would people be pissed if they could get a game cheaper from their couch?
If the retail disc is cheaper when you factor in the resell value, and you plan to sell the game, the disc will still be your best value, so you buy the disc.
If the digital version is better value, you buy that.
Who are these "Disc people" that will get offended at a better deal? 56k modem users?

You´re defending MS previous stance, while contradicting it at the same time here, the whole point of that system was to make it more like Steam, move into a DD focused model, get everyone going digital, how is that less "offensive to the disc people"?
And how is instead making retail discs viable again, but incentivicing DD instead of forcing it, worse?


Good questions. I'll explain my stance a little more clearly.

The scenario proposed in the post I replied to was sell the discs using the current model, and sell the digital copies using the model that has now been abandoned.

The problem is a lot of people would then be upset that the digital users would gain the ability to do discless play (already a reality that gets complaints on the 360), and the shared library as well as some future scenarios that I've mentioned, but haven't gone into detail on. If prices were equal you gain nothing from a value side monetarily, but lose additional features. Yes you also don't have to deal with DRM, but I for one wanted the shared library for use with family that I don't live near.

The part about the upset over the lack of discless play isn't an assumption btw. I used to review customer satisfaction data and in the realm of console functionality I would rank that as either the #1 or #2 complaint.

Also you do realize that it looks weird to mock people sticking with old technology while advocating sticking with old technology, right?

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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:23 AM   #184
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Microsoft has fixed it's policies. They have great STEAM-like features. They have Xbox Live.

I can see if you still want a PS4 instead just because you like Sony's user experience. But this bickering as if one system is total crap and the other is awesome is very, very odd.

Lets be honest. It'll probably be JUST like last generation... either one you get it'll be fine. Now go pre-order whatever and be happy.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:25 AM   #185
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Microsoft has fixed it's policies. They have great STEAM-like features. They have Xbox Live.

I can see if you still want a PS4 instead just because you like Sony's user experience. But this bickering as if one system is total crap and the other is awesome is very, very odd.

Lets be honest. It'll probably be JUST like last generation... either one you get it'll be fine. Now go pre-order whatever and be happy.
Actually they lost some of the Steam-like features in this move.

The other part I've been saying all along...buy what you want.

Personally I plan on getting both still.

Last edited by crash override : Jun 20, 2013 at 03:29 AM.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:52 AM   #186
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Still not buying it. Always on Kinect, download policies, Indie bullshit, and the 'change anytime clause' in their terms of service keep me away.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:56 AM   #187
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Still not buying it. Always on Kinect, download policies, Indie bullshit, and the 'change anytime clause' in their terms of service keep me away.

Kinect can be turned off via the settings, and what download policy?

Also that change anytime clause isn't new...yet somehow you still have a Gamertag, and pay for LIVE Gold.

Hmm...

Last edited by crash override : Jun 20, 2013 at 03:58 AM.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 04:13 AM   #188
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Good questions. I'll explain my stance a little more clearly.

The scenario proposed in the post I replied to was sell the discs using the current model, and sell the digital copies using the model that has now been abandoned.
Well the post you replied to was my post, about retaining retail disc functionality as is, and offering DD as a step forward, is a better way to win customers over compared to trying to force it by making retail discs just a activation code for what is essentially a digital game.
IE make DD a better looking option, to get people onboard, instead of basically removing what retail discs are today, which apparently pissed off a lot of people.

Its basically "This is how shit´s gonna work from now on, deal with it" compared to "here´s another venue for you to get your games, it´s pretty sweet and all that, but if you really want you can still buy these legacy discs, and all that is business as normal.".
And if you offer Digital Distribution as a much superior option, then people will move over to that, cause why wouldnt they? (restrictive bandwidth caps withstanding I guess)
It worked for steam, and they DIDNT come in day one and said "right, here´s our digital stuff, it´s the bomb, and we´re shutting down retail discs for all PC games"
It was an option, and even though it was usually more expensive, it was easier and faster to get the games. (yes, there are games out there, on disc, that is basically just a activation code for the steam version, and in those cases, it isnt an option, but for a lot of games it is).

So this route will be about winning people over to this new and better way of delivering games, not by forcing it upon them.

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The problem is a lot of people would then be upset that the digital users would gain the ability to do discless play (already a reality that gets complaints on the 360), and the shared library as well as some future scenarios that I've mentioned, but haven't gone into detail on. If prices were equal you gain nothing from a value side monetarily, but lose additional features. Yes you also don't have to deal with DRM, but I for one wanted the shared library for use with family that I don't live near.
Sure, but then again, if you feel that you loose more from buying the disc, compared to buying it digitally, you CAN acctually opt not to buy the disc.
Probably the strongest reason to buy the disc, is so you can sell it, but the old way wouldnt allow that anyway (atleast not with the same return I guess), so it´s kinda moot.
And in contrast, the people grumbling about "I dont want to buy digital, but I dont want to play off this disc I bought", are a fart in a hurricane compared to how people reacted to the "old" policy.

You gotta let people take that step themselves, and then it´ll be their choice and they´ll rave about how discs sucks in the end.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 04:13 AM   #189
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Kinect can be turned off via the settings, and what download policy?

Also that change anytime clause isn't new...yet somehow you still have a Gamertag, and pay for LIVE Gold.

Hmm...
I want an independent power cable to turn it off. I do not trust in 'settings'.

I have a gamertag because I liked the 360 despite it's flaws. This generation, Microsoft has proven they are arrogant beyond measure and as such the 'change anytime' might turn into a bait and switch.

Microsoft lost my trust in them when they thought this DRM always online stuff was a good idea. I've since cancelled my recurring yearly membership and it will expire in november.

You don't know my whole story behind this, so I appreciate you having the civility to not pick at me with insults and instead point things out so they can be answered.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 04:28 AM   #190
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I want an independent power cable to turn it off. I do not trust in 'settings'.

I have a gamertag because I liked the 360 despite it's flaws. This generation, Microsoft has proven they are arrogant beyond measure and as such the 'change anytime' might turn into a bait and switch.

Microsoft lost my trust in them when they thought this DRM always online stuff was a good idea. I've since cancelled my recurring yearly membership and it will expire in november.

You don't know my whole story behind this, so I appreciate you having the civility to not pick at me with insults and instead point things out so they can be answered.

That's what I try to do. I believe in being civil unless I'm attacked first.

Thank you for replying in a calm responsible manner as well.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 05:03 AM   #191
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What I don't understand is why everyone keeps referring to Steam as if it had the same policy as Xbone "had". I mean I have never been cut of my games while my internet has been down. I'm able to sell any disc purchase that I have tied to my steam account. All I have to do is realease the cd-key from my steam account and the game is ready to be sold.

I completely understand that I can't resell my digital purchases, but they haven't been near retail pricing and this is what they need to understand. If you are going to sell digitally distributed content is sure as hell shouldn't cost anywhere near a retail game disc.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 06:51 AM   #192
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So with the Xbox 1 no longer requiring an internet connection does this throw their cloud offsite computing out the window? Where MS claimed that they can free up local resources due to using the cloud for offsite processing?

I understand that this will not affect the player count and physics in multiplayer games as the processing is done on a real (mostly likely PC-based) dedicated server. But will this affect their lighting, physics, and improved AI claims in single player titles? The point is if no one needs an internet connection why waste money and developer resources on cloud computing if only a fraction of gamers will use it.

I don't know about you guys but I was REALLY looking forward to this technology. I thought if it was successful I could easily see Steam doing something similar with their Steam box.

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Old Jun 20, 2013, 07:17 AM   #193
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The family plan thing was all a gimmick. Microsoft could do it on their games, but they can't force every xbox one game to buy into it, or 360. That would be a independent decision by the publishers, on a per game basis. These are the details that Microsoft refused to talk about. They merely only started talking about family plan because of the initial backlash in their first unavailing. And apparently, the developers and publishers had no clue about all this DRM in the first place, I seriously doubt they were already on board with "family plan".
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 07:36 AM   #194
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That's exactly how I feel..
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 07:42 AM   #195
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The family plan thing was all a gimmick. Microsoft could do it on their games, but they can't force every xbox one game to buy into it, or 360. That would be a independent decision by the publishers, on a per game basis. These are the details that Microsoft refused to talk about. They merely only started talking about family plan because of the initial backlash in their first unavailing. And apparently, the developers and publishers had no clue about all this DRM in the first place, I seriously doubt they were already on board with "family plan".
Lots of "facts" in there.. Care to back any of them up?
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 07:45 AM   #196
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Lots of "facts" in there.. Care to back any of them up?
That is my point.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 07:47 AM   #197
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That's exactly how I feel..
Thats funny because it is all satire making fun of microsoft.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 07:48 AM   #198
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We got them to remove the draconian DRM which is a win for everybody yet now some of you are blaming us for THEM removing the family sharing plan as well...wtf? We have no control over what MS does as you can't tell me with all the resources MS has they couldn't find a way to make it work or at least have consumers op in with the restrictive drm/sharing for those that want it...sorry not buying it.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 07:49 AM   #199
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To everyone claiming this was the future, what exactly are you referring to that was the future? What end game was to be achieved by making everything digital exclusive?
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:20 AM   #200
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That is my point.

No, your point was to bash something without any idea about which you spoke. MS is in charge of the agreements they have with publishers. If the publisher wants to release a game on MS's system, then it would have had to do what MS wanted it to do, period.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:23 AM   #201
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We got them to remove the draconian DRM which is a win for everybody yet now some of you are blaming us for THEM removing the family sharing plan as well...wtf? We have no control over what MS does as you can't tell me with all the resources MS has they couldn't find a way to make it work or at least have consumers op in with the restrictive drm/sharing for those that want it...sorry not buying it.
MS could make the Family Plan appealing to the publishers by also getting them some money back on used games sales. Why would the publishers want a deal that is worse with MS than it is with Sony? You kill one, the other had to die.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:23 AM   #202
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To everyone claiming this was the future, what exactly are you referring to that was the future? What end game was to be achieved by making everything digital exclusive?
The future is the internet, if you dont like the internet then move into a cave with your cds, vhs tapes and chant to your old gods around your fire

Everything is going digital and we want instant access to everything, everywhere.
We are streaming movies, tv, sports and music
We are buying digital games on pc, smartphone, tablets etc
We are uploading our files to the cloud

Many people dont even have a dvd drive in their pc anymore

It makes everything easier and better.

But oh noes it wants to check my game through the net once every 24 hours? EVERYONE GO CRAZY.

The government ****ing us on our rights every day? who the **** cares DONT TOUCH MA BLU RAY GAMES! I want to build a cave out of my huge pile of game boxes!
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:28 AM   #203
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The future is the internet, if you dont like the internet then move into a cave with your cds, vhs tapes and chant to your old gods around your fire

Everything is going digital and we want instant access to everything, everywhere.
We are streaming movies, tv, sports and music
We are buying digital games on pc, smartphone, tablets etc
We are uploading our files to the cloud

Many people dont even have a dvd drive in their pc anymore

It makes everything easier and better.

But oh noes it wants to check my game through the net once every 24 hours? EVERYONE GO CRAZY.

The government ****ing us on our rights every day? who the **** cares DONT TOUCH MA BLU RAY GAMES! I want to build a cave out of my huge pile of game boxes!
Why, oh why did they kill the rep system!!!!!!

Well said.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:31 AM   #204
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Then you have a divided ecosystem and version skew issues and it just becomes a mess.

Developers have to code for both scenarios. That is a far larger nightmare


Now with Ciera I was being contemptuous.

In your case I ask seriously have you ever tried to do something like this? Your input I actually listen to since you debate the points, and don't just have a knee-jerk reaction.
Who has to code for both scenarios, what are the scenarios, and how are they different from the current situation?

Even before the announcement, your game had to be able to go 24 without a connection. So developers already had to give their games an on-line and offline mode. If a developer wants to include on-line services (I.e. cloud computing) for their game, not much has changed in that regard. From this perspective, the developer already has to do the work.

The extra effort seems like it would be in the DRM framework, which already requires a digital and disc version. What I proposed would require some extra work, but it wouldn't have to be separately for every game and must be a drop in the bucket compared to the console development.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:33 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Adanu View Post
and the 'change anytime clause' in their terms of service
Funny how people downplayed that language when the old policies were in place... "They're not going to change them. That's just legalese they always include. DERP!"... Now those same people are going to complain (and have been complaing on various outlets across the net) about its inclusion, trying to spread FUD that MS will somehow reintroduce the old policies at any time.

By the way, "can change at anytime" clauses exist everywhere. If you don't like it then I sure hope you never agree to any TOS, EULA, etc
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:39 AM   #206
Adanu
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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
The future is the internet, if you dont like the internet then move into a cave with your cds, vhs tapes and chant to your old gods around your fire

Everything is going digital and we want instant access to everything, everywhere.
We are streaming movies, tv, sports and music
We are buying digital games on pc, smartphone, tablets etc
We are uploading our files to the cloud

Many people dont even have a dvd drive in their pc anymore

It makes everything easier and better.

But oh noes it wants to check my game through the net once every 24 hours? EVERYONE GO CRAZY.

The government ****ing us on our rights every day? who the **** cares DONT TOUCH MA BLU RAY GAMES! I want to build a cave out of my huge pile of game boxes!
I want options, not digital shoved up my ass.

You and your ilk can take your instant gratification networking bullshit. I'll take a console from a company that explains itself and has a clue. Steam. does. not. work. on. consoles. There is no way it would work in the long term, and I'm glad they've dropped it.

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Originally Posted by DeathKnight View Post
Funny how people downplayed that language when the old policies were in place... "They're not going to change them. That's just legalese they always include. DERP!"... Now those same people are going to complain (and have been complaing on various outlets across the net) about its inclusion, trying to spread FUD that MS will somehow reintroduce the old policies at any time.

By the way, "can change at anytime" clauses exist everywhere. If you don't like it then I sure hope you never agree to any TOS, EULA, etc
This is about reputation and precedent. Most do not change their stuff and we rely on that reputation for it.

Don't try and play the 'we whine too much' card on this. It's a new situation, and you setting up strawman logic does not help your case.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:48 AM   #207
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Been thinking about the 180 this morning while I was running. Here is what I concluded:

Microsoft isn't a dumb company. They get a lot of FUD honestly yet people forget who they are and how they became who they are. Microsoft is the forefront to the whole idea of licensing software. It is the core of their success. Microsoft is also masters of industry analysis while they are not technically industry innovators; though they do innovate despite the counter claims by FUD'ers, they are industry trend setters.

Here is where the core of the problem. I honestly think Microsoft thought they could push the digital trend to mainstream consoles and be the first to push this mainstream. I honestly think they had support of game developers DESPITE what is being posted by those same developers; EA, Activision, etc... Secondly, I think they looked at other markets and wrongfully compared it to the console market. This is where MBA's go wrong. They looked at the mobile market; the new emerging Android console market; PC distribution systems (Steam, GOG, GMG, Orgin, etc...); and their own Marketplace and wrongfully assumed since these are successful that the market was now ready for a near pure digital distribution system for consoles. What the MBA's failed to realize is cost to ownership and the type of games that these systems distribute (Exception of the PC and will detail that later).

The mobile industry is based on $1 to $10 apps. Majority of them are small in size and most of them are casual games. They are perfect for cellular networks where bandwidth has high cost and is not consistent and they are great for on the go as they require very little time investment. Also, the economics of mobile games are far cheaper and customers are more opted to spend a few dollars on cheap entertainment on the go. It is yet to determine if the Android consoles will have the same success.

PC distributions are also successful, but they are not the same type of systems that consoles are. First PC lost retail long time ago for many different reasons. Digital distribution actually revived the PC gaming industry. Secondly, all of these services leverage sales to keep customers coming back. Its a great concept. Offer games at huge discounts and most customers will be willing to grab a game at retail cost just because they like the service. Its a give and take approach to customer service and it works great. Console distribution systems rarely do this. They are starting, but it's not as mainstream as the PC distribution. Mostly because the console manufacture controls the market system where as PC is wide open (for the time being).

Even MS own marketplace has been somewhat success particularly around small and indie like games. The more sales they do the more it attracts people and they are finally realizing this.

So in essence I think Microsoft MBA's were wrongfully assuming the customers would migrate to this approach with open arms and they took the gamble thinking they not only delivering what customers wanted, but what publishers wanted. I am pretty confident the publishers left Microsoft hanging after the backlash. I can't fathom MS not having their full support and moving forward with this. It is my opinion not Sony or end user backlash, but the lack of support openly to the public by the publishers is what pushed MS to change it's policy. They felt back stabbed and this betrayal would hurt bottom line.

I am happy that they are offering the traditional approach. However, I am sadden on that they are doing all or nothing approach. I loved some of the distrubiton ideas. Installing game to harddrive once and/or having it mirrored in the cloud (Ala steam approach), ability to share with family, etc... Those were great ideas that actually would push them more to the industry they want for the future. I feel now the MBA's are doing the stubborn approach and not really learning.

This is the problem with MBA's. They are not logical. Just like Engineers are not economical. Interesting enough I remember Bill Gates said in the early 2000's that customers would be platform independent and that software would become a service. People would go to the internet and run their games, office, and other software services. He was talking about the "Cloud", "SAAS", "PAAS", and digital distribution when that did not exist at the time. They are forward thinkers; just this time poor executioners.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 09:05 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Qb2k5 View Post
So with the Xbox 1 no longer requiring an internet connection does this throw their cloud offsite computing out the window? Where MS claimed that they can free up local resources due to using the cloud for offsite processing?
I dont see how that would be changed.
It´s basically cloud storage, with a certain amount of computational resources that are there if you want to do something.
Like the "Drivatar" stuff, where they just pipe up data and cruch it to build AI profiles that are then shipped back.
So cloud storage, and free server hosting (Ie MP games wont have to be hosted locally on the console, as I understand some games did and gave the hoster a bit of a advantage latencywise) are the most obvious things.
Think TitanFall has talked about that, you´re never hosting locally, when you host a game, it gets hosted on a cloud slot basically.
There was a MS guy on Giantbombs E3 podcast, talked a bit more realistically about what the hell that stuff really was.

Removing the requirement to have a online connection to play games, probably doesnt affect the number of players that will be online.
I mean who doesnt have a active internet connection these days?
But to some extent, they cant fully bank on it anymore, but it´s there, and they could probably never fully bank on everyone being connected 100% of their playtime either, even when there was the 24h check.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 09:14 AM   #209
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This is about reputation and precedent.
No it's not. It's about people moving the goal posts to whatever suits their position. Don't think the first part of my post up there was aimed at you (I didn't directly address you). I simply used your statement as a springboard to point out something rather ironic. The second part was addressed to you.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 09:26 AM   #210
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Microsoft has fixed it's policies.
No they didn't!
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