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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:44 PM   #61
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shrike126
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YET ANOTHER UPDATE (5:24 Eastern): Microsoft has confirmed to Kotaku that the "family sharing" and digital cloud library access features that were planned to be in the Xbox One are indeed gone thanks to today's policy reversal. Xbox one users will also apparently have to download a "Day One" patch to enable the offline mode.
Looks like family library sharing is out.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:49 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by crash override View Post
There's a key component to what I said there. Sharing...

Steam and other digital marketplaces don't allow for sharing currently.

That's what I was trying to address. The sharing model is hard to control when you have 2 different mediums and have to keep them separate. It's easier to maintain when you have a similar model for licensing rights across both forms of media.
What you just said doesn't really follow. Yes, Steam does not allow sharing. But that has nothing to do with multiple format support. After all, steam only sells digital games through their system.

Additionally, like I said, XBO digital content is going to be treated differently anyway. Physical games will require a disc in the drive, digital downloads will not. Physical games can be sold or lent, digital games can not.

I think there are two primary reasons family library was removed.
1) they hadn't worked it out with publishers, which may have wanted their own input on how their games could be shared.
2) they hadn't actually implemented the feature, it would have been a headache for them to get right, and it was only their in the first place to quell criticism of the on-line DRM.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:49 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by shrike126 View Post
Looks like family library sharing is out.
Yeah, now I can just had a family member a disc and tell them to have at it on their machine. If I have 3 boxes in the house another family member can play another disc.

That's real sharing, not that proposed bullcrap.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:50 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by shrike126 View Post
Looks like family library sharing is out.
A day one patch? lol, all the consoles are already sitting in a warehouse ready to ship? While at E3 they were running Xbox One games on windows 7 PC's.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Clockwork View Post
Yeah, now I can just had a family member a disc and tell them to have at it on their machine. If I have 3 boxes in the house another family member can play another disc.

That's real sharing, not that proposed bullcrap.
It was all a gimmick anyway to ease the consumer into the big brother policy. Throw out an outlandish high number like 10, but rettrict it to 2, market the 10, don't talk about the 2, then home run. Right? Am I right?
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:54 PM   #66
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It was all a gimmick anyway to ease the consumer into the big brother policy. Throw out an outlandish high number like 10, but rettrict it to 2, market the 10, don't talk about the 2, then home run. Right? Am I right?
Exactly.

I have ~30 360 games right now on disc. I could hand out all 30 of them to whoever I want and they could all play them.'

Now if you're sad because you're in Oakland, CA and uncle Steve is in Baltimore, MD and you can't share like the family plan would have let you well that's different. I think it was worth the sacrifice.

It's ridiculous anyway to say that this DRM was a requirement. It's completely feasible under the current model. PSN games on PS3 can be shared.

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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:55 PM   #67
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:58 PM   #68
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Xbox One Eighty - its official.
Wait until they change everything again. It'll step back to 360 again.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:59 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Clockwork View Post
Yeah, now I can just had a family member a disc and tell them to have at it on their machine. If I have 3 boxes in the house another family member can play another disc.

That's real sharing, not that proposed bullcrap.
Yah or how bout now you have to let your brother/sister use your disc that lives an hour+ away and hope you and he/she remembers that you lent them the game. Before they could just play the game so long as you didn't want to play the same game at the same time. Hmm which of those options is better.

I personally have likely 15-20 games that I have let others use and never seen again because I forget about it. Couple that with I generally bounce back and forth between several games at a time till I start one that really grabs my attention and keeps it till its done. In this scenario I could let others play the other games and if I got the urge to play it just start it up and it would kick them off if they were playing it at the time. But hey now I can give/loose my discs to others.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:03 PM   #70
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Please tell me what those loopholes are.

Let me put it this way,
1) I want to play the game so my console asks yours for permission. Your console says yes and disables local play on that console.
2) Your console also sends a note to a sever that says that my permission is valid.
3) My console can then check in with the sever every hour (or 15 minutes or whatever) to see if it still has permission.
4) When I shutdown the game, my console tells the server I am done playing.
5) When you want to play, your console checks in with the server to see if I am done. If I am not done, it asks if you want to boot me from the game. If you say yes, the server call my console and tells my console to shut the game down (if they are nice, it might give me a 15 minute grace period). If my console is not on-line, it will be forced to shut the game down when it can't connect at the next mandatory check-in.
6) After sending the request to boot me from the game or finding that I am done playing, your console would let you play the game. If they are not nice, they may make you wait until my console releases the game or the mandatory check-in lapses.

Maybe I am deficient, but I don't see any loop wholes in that system that didn't exist with the previous model. It actually seems more robust than the previous model, because people can't disconnect and play their game for 24 hours while a friend checks it out of the family library.
I have to be careful here...because there are some items related to current security on the 360 and loopholes that exist currently.

1. In that scenario it requires that your console makes a direct connection with my console. Microsoft is moving away from these types of connections for various reasons, some related to security. That's literally as deep as I can go on that one legally.

2. That was already the case. That's part of what the check-in was for. It was to allow account based authentication to show that all licenses are still valid.

3. Already the case as well...or well was the case.

4. Read 3.

5. Very similar to what was already in place.

6. Also similar to what was in place.


So one thing that you misunderstood is that the owner of the title always had access to their titles. They always had priority over people who are 'borrowing' the title.

The loopholes almost all come in at your first step there. There are some issues with the current 360 model that they were hoping to close by the introduction of this new model. My NDA on those loopholes is still in place until 5-years after the 360 is retired from active production.

I can say that there are ways to share ownership of titles currently that allow more than one user to be actively using the same title at the same time that do not involve hacking, modifying, redistributing, etc.

Those ways are directly tied into digital content licenses, not current disc based licenses. The issues literally do not exist with current disc based content at all.

With the future moving towards higher and higher amounts of digital distributed content they needed a way to prevent those existing loopholes from being abused. They also wanted to have easier ways for people to share and use their content while removing some of the negatives of disc ownership.

By removing the disc from the equation after initial install you remove wear and tear on the disc and the drive. By enabling a shared library you removed concerns about theft or damage.

The problem is that in order to enable these scenarios you have to tie a license to the title...which opened up those channels for abuse again since it would be treated almost identically to the digitally distributed content.

The way to prevent those loopholes that could allow the more clever folks to setup title sharing in a way that could be abused was to tie in another authentication factor. It would have to be something that was checked on a fairly regular basis.

I can't do a deep dive into the more technical details because I don't have any materials here at home with me, and even if I did...NDA yet again. *sighs*

By moving back to the two completely separate models and shutting down the shared library it basically makes disc based content no longer require a license which shuts down the abuse factor...which is why the disc will have to be in the drive...to verify ownership.

The loophole will still exist in digital based content, but again with the shared library turned off the abuse factor doesn't really exist...so things can go the way they have been all along.


I know a ton of folks will call BS on this post...but I can't help that. Everything here is as correct as I can write it without giving out details that I cannot give out, and without the materials right in front of me.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:05 PM   #71
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To be honest I don't give two hoots about family sharing. They want the game go buy it like I have to. I do feel for the people that looked forward to it but it does sound like it would have been a drm logistical nightmare if they were serious about implementing it.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:09 PM   #72
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Making this a separate post since my earlier one was so large:

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A day one patch? lol, all the consoles are already sitting in a warehouse ready to ship? While at E3 they were running Xbox One games on windows 7 PC's.
I actually talked about the Windows 7 PC thing in earlier posts. The bits were being streamed not actually sitting on that box.

Also I don't follow your logic on the patch scenario. You think motherboards are made and flashed with system images just days before a new generation ships? They are manufacturing consoles well before the initial sales date. So it's not that unlikely that at least some consoles will have to be updated on Day One.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:11 PM   #73
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I have to be careful here...because there are some items related to current security on the 360 and loopholes that exist currently.

1. In that scenario it requires that your console makes a direct connection with my console. Microsoft is moving away from these types of connections for various reasons, some related to security. That's literally as deep as I can go on that one legally.
No it doesn't. Console A communicates with Server. Server communicates with Console B and vice versa. No direct connection needed and it can all be done through accounts.

In any case, why couldn't they just apply the DRM to digital titles. Then if you buy a disc and OPT IN you can convert the disc to a digital license which has all the benefits and pitfalls of their original plan, while physical discs don't get those "features" but you do get to use them like you did in the past?
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:13 PM   #74
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To be honest I don't give two hoots about family sharing. They want the game go buy it like I have to. I do feel for the people that looked forward to it but it does sound like it would have been a drm logistical nightmare if they were serious about implementing it.
They had it set up to implement.. Cry babies without internet, too poor to afford internet or always camping ruined it(or any other excuse of why you have no access to internet). There was cool features in there.. Again I hope they can figure out how to get them back while keeping Devs/Pubs happy.

I was also looking forward to just launching games without the disc if I choose to purchase a disc based game.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:14 PM   #75
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Now bring it down to $399 and you guys probably won me back. (can't stand the ps controller)
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:14 PM   #76
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:15 PM   #77
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No it doesn't. Console A communicates with Server. Server communicates with Console B and vice versa. No direct connection needed and it can all be done through accounts.

In any case, why couldn't they just apply the DRM to digital titles. Then if you buy a disc and OPT IN you can convert the disc to a digital license which has all the benefits and pitfalls of their original plan, while physical discs don't get those "features" but you do get to use them like you did in the past?
The scenario he gave was

1) I want to play the game so my console asks yours for permission. Your console says yes and disables local play on that console.

He said that his console would ask my console for permission. He didn't say that his console would ask a server and that server would ask mine for permission.

I already went through all this though for his sake and won't write another really long post on it. :P



As regards your second scenario (and this part is only a guess since I'm not there anymore so I can only comment 100% factually on what I was there for, understood?) I would say that it's likely due to it treating disc owners like second class citizens in a way. It creates a huge amount of feature skew between digital and physical and I think a lot of people would have reacted badly to that.

So rather than deal with yet another wave of backlash they just decided to go with the status quo. It creates the smallest number of waves amongst people.

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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:18 PM   #78
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They were doing more 'staged reveals' leading up to the launch of the Xbox One. It was designed to be sort of like a '...just one more thing' each time. It was meant to keep enthusiasm up the whole time.
I don't doubt that. I just doubt that anything they announced would ever justify the 24 hour check-in to the consumers.


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Remember that streaming tech I was talking about that was used for demos at E3? That was using account based authentication systems instead of disc based. It was for enabling a lot more than just the shared library on Xbox One...a lot more.

I can say that any folks that were hoping for an easy way to play their old 360 titles without having to own both consoles pretty much just had that dream shattered. If they still put that feature out there I will be surprised.
So ms was going to offer backwards compatability through an onlive syle service. Sony's got the same thing... only thing is they announced it... and they can do it without a 24 hour check-in for offline disk-based games.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:18 PM   #79
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Crash...another ? for you. Were developers/publishers actually on board with the family sharing plan? I mean isn't it like missing out on 10 potential sales, as the pc game publishers keep screaming about piracy, used games, borrowing, blah, blah? I would think that would be more of a hurdle than technical logistics?
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:21 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by crash override View Post
1. In that scenario it requires that your console makes a direct connection with my console. Microsoft is moving away from these types of connections for various reasons, some related to security. That's literally as deep as I can go on that one legally.
You don't actually need a direct connection. My console could contact the server and the server could contact your console to setup the loan.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:23 PM   #81
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I don't doubt that. I just doubt that anything they announced would ever justify the 24 hour check-in to the consumers.


So ms was going to offer backwards compatability through an onlive syle service. Sony's got the same thing... only thing is they announced it... and they can do it without a 24 hour check-in.
Sony has Gaikai which has a lot of latency based issues that make it impractical for multi-player gaming or gaming based upon specifically timed button press events. For example, think 'quick time events' or fighting games'.

The latency on the stuff I was working on was so low that if those cabinets hadn't been opened at E3 no one would have known it wasn't running on bare metal. The latency when I left between input from the user and display on screen was under 50ms and I know they were pushing to have it under 20 before launch.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:24 PM   #82
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So ms was going to offer backwards compatability through an onlive syle service. Sony's got the same thing... only thing is they announced it... and they can do it without a 24 hour check-in.
But you would/do need to be online to use it though - as it's streaming... what's the difference?

I expect what Crash worked on will still be coming, especially as Sony have proposed a similar thing. I was more excited with the prospect of streaming my Xbox One library to a Windows PC though...doubt that will happen without the online check-in.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:26 PM   #83
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Making this a separate post since my earlier one was so large:



I actually talked about the Windows 7 PC thing in earlier posts. The bits were being streamed not actually sitting on that box.

Also I don't follow your logic on the patch scenario. You think motherboards are made and flashed with system images just days before a new generation ships? They are manufacturing consoles well before the initial sales date. So it's not that unlikely that at least some consoles will have to be updated on Day One.
Never saw a post about streaming.

Sorry, still doesn't make sense to me this far in advance, they have zero real hardware running the games at E3 and your trying to tell me they are all assembled and out the door already? yes the parts are being manufactured now and I dont see at this point why the change wouldn't be made before it ships.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:28 PM   #84
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You don't actually need a direct connection. My console could contact the server and the server could contact your console to setup the loan.
In that scenario you have the requirement then that the console be online for that whole period of time to authorize a checkout each and every time that it is requested.

I know, I know. People are going to say 'well what about that whole have to be online all the time thing anyways bit'.

In the current scenario it just simply allowed for a single 'ping' on the owners content once a day to ensure all titles were licensed. It prevented constant traffic for both you and Microsoft.

Basically it was a matter of simplicity and also a matter of being more efficient. There is nothing that would technically prevent that scenario at all.

It just means more work on all sides and more data traffic. It also meant that if there was a slight hiccup at the time of the request for any reason (for any network conditions not just on the MS side) that the request would be denied. If the check-in just happens once per day then it's just done and will just work.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:32 PM   #85
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As a gamer, the entire xbone model was shiit. Thank god for PS4.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:32 PM   #86
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Never saw a post about streaming.

Sorry, still doesn't make sense to me this far in advance, they have zero real hardware running the games at E3 and your trying to tell me they are all assembled and out the door already? yes the parts are being manufactured now and I dont see at this point why the change wouldn't be made before it ships.
I didn't say that (in regards to already out the door) at all. I was saying that consoles are normally put together months in advance of the launch date.

I have no idea how many (if any) finalized motherboards are out there. It can be hard to explain sometimes how things work as far as images go on machines.

I've received phones before that had non-final versions of system software on them before, and have had the same happen for a few others pieces of electronics. Sometimes the hardware is ready before the software and it gets imprinted with a basic image that is a current snapshot, and then it gets updated upon release.

I was giving a scenario, not a definite answer as I haven't been working on anything related to hardware for about 18 months now.


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But you would/do need to be online to use it though - as it's streaming... what's the difference?

I expect what Crash worked on will still be coming, especially as Sony have proposed a similar thing. I was more excited with the prospect of streaming my Xbox One library to a Windows PC though...doubt that will happen without the online check-in.
Yup it required being online to use it since it is streaming.

As regards the BC stuff...it doesn't look like it's going to make it because they were using some of the same infrastructure to prevent abuse of the titles. I could still be pleasantly surprised, but I think odds are fairly slim right now due to the info I got earlier today about folks being let go.

Last edited by crash override : Jun 19, 2013 at 06:36 PM.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:34 PM   #87
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They had it set up to implement.. Cry babies without internet, too poor to afford internet or always camping ruined it(or any other excuse of why you have no access to internet). There was cool features in there.. Again I hope they can figure out how to get them back while keeping Devs/Pubs happy.

I was also looking forward to just launching games without the disc if I choose to purchase a disc based game.
In the proposed system you would have thrown away the disc after installing it once. Want to play without the disc in the drive? Buy the direct download version. It's not like you're a crybaby without internet afterall
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:34 PM   #88
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saw this on neogaf, got a good chuckle
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:37 PM   #89
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saw this on neogaf, got a good chuckle
That was in regards to keeping the now scrapped features while disabling the check.

It wasn't simple...which is why they are now gone.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:38 PM   #90
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The latency on the stuff I was working on was so low that if those cabinets hadn't been opened at E3 no one would have known it wasn't running on bare metal. The latency when I left between input from the user and display on screen was under 50ms and I know they were pushing to have it under 20 before launch.
Why are you still saying this as though it's a fact?

There were many different solutions and configurations being used to display games at E3.

That you say you recognized certain aspects of the hardware when we got a crappy picture at best was questionable. Especially when you say "I haven't been working on anything related to hardware for about 18 months now."
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