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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:08 PM   #31
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Great step forward, but it still requires the camera

Will be interesting to see if the whole Xbox One DRM debacle will have been forgotten in one week
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by SubCog View Post
If that unnanounced stuff was so amazing that everyone would've been happy with the anti-consumer DRM, they should have announced it. Without announcing it, there's no reason anyone would think this new announcement is anything but good news.

I am truly skeptical that there was anything "unannounced" that was so amazing that it would make consumers ok with the DRM that ms proposed.
They were doing more 'staged reveals' leading up to the launch of the Xbox One. It was designed to be sort of like a '...just one more thing' each time. It was meant to keep enthusiasm up the whole time.

I already have confirmation from friends of a ton of folks who are basically out of work now due to this. I don't mean the PR folks, or the exec's, or the dev's. I mean the people who were hammering things to make sure they worked. Some of these were related to things that were announced, but most of them were related to things that weren't announced.

Remember that streaming tech I was talking about that was used for demos at E3? That was using account based authentication systems instead of disc based. It was for enabling a lot more than just the shared library on Xbox One...a lot more.

I can say that any folks that were hoping for an easy way to play their old 360 titles without having to own both consoles pretty much just had that dream shattered. If they still put that feature out there I will be surprised.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:13 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by LimeyGeeza View Post
Yep - done deal...

No more Family library, and no access to games everywhere - which for me me were two great features, said they may still come later down the road.

More here

So what are all the haters gonna hate on now? The $100 more price tag?
I wish they had kept the new policies in place for digital downloads.

I somehow wonder if publishers were not cool with the family sharing plan.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:13 PM   #34
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Policy specific posts merged to this thread. Non-policy specific posts should go in the relevant existing threads.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:17 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by crash override View Post
Not at all. Several consumer directed features were just cut today...and a ton of consumers lost their jobs. Contractors/employees are consumers too.

I didn't of course since my work was already done...but other people working on those future features have had their jobs wiped out since they are no longer needed.
That's the cut and thrust of the business, don't like it, don't get in it, harsh but true....

Don't invest in a DRM based system that will throw the majority of the gaming community and beyond against your product, there will be consequences....

We never got to hear about these "consumer directed features", if they were that good, they should have been shouting about them from the rooftops...

Bottom line is, if these features needed the 24 check in, they were doomed from the outset....
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:18 PM   #36
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It's not actually.

I was trying to explain this to folks. The way this was engineered it was either one way or the other.

This also means that some other unannounced stuff is most likely scrapped. I'm fairly certain that the stuff I had worked on is most likely shutdown and those folks will be out of jobs now.
Hey Crash...do you think logistically/technically they could have kept the family sharing while removing the drm restrictions?

PS: nm you answered it in your post below.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:18 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by aviphysics View Post
I wish they had kept the new policies in place for digital downloads.

I somehow wonder if publishers were not cool with the family sharing plan.
Treating disc based and digital based titles differently in regards to sharing is really complex programmatically.

That's why I had tried to stress earlier it was an all or nothing solution. Either you get the stronger DRM checks, or you get what we already have.

The problem is that while stronger DRM was there (yes I know booooo) there were features that were dependent upon it. So basically in regards to that you're getting what we already have today, and losing all the new stuff that was announced and other stuff that was still being worked on.

So while you gain a small victory on the DRM front, you lose a lot of features.


Anyone remember my post from a while back in regards to the concept of give and take. In order to gain something you have to lose something.

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Originally Posted by Mickey Padge View Post
That's the cut and thrust of the business, don't like it, don't get in it, harsh but true....

Don't invest in a DRM based system that will throw the majority of the gaming community and beyond against your product, there will be consequences....

We never got to hear about these "consumer directed features", if they were that good, they should have been shouting about them from the rooftops...

Bottom line is, if these features needed the 24 check in, they were doomed from the outset....
Check one of my other posts. I got into a bit more detail there.

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Originally Posted by bittermann View Post
Hey Crash...do you think logistically/technically they could have kept the family sharing while removing the drm restrictions?
Nope. There has to be a check in order to ensure ownership. There is quite literally 0 chance publishers would allow a title to be shared with no restrictions preventing infinite sharing.

Last edited by crash override : Jun 19, 2013 at 05:21 PM.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:19 PM   #38
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Glad the policies are being revisited. It does seem like some of babies are headed out with the bathwater though. If some of these policies are worthwhile enough to be called "the future", then figure out a way have the best of both worlds.

Family share is a good example. Instead of killing it, implement a check system that only applies if family share is enabled.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:19 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by crash override View Post
They were doing more 'staged reveals' leading up to the launch of the Xbox One. It was designed to be sort of like a '...just one more thing' each time. It was meant to keep enthusiasm up the whole time.

I already have confirmation from friends of a ton of folks who are basically out of work now due to this. I don't mean the PR folks, or the exec's, or the dev's. I mean the people who were hammering things to make sure they worked. Some of these were related to things that were announced, but most of them were related to things that weren't announced.

Remember that streaming tech I was talking about that was used for demos at E3? That was using account based authentication systems instead of disc based. It was for enabling a lot more than just the shared library on Xbox One...a lot more.

I can say that any folks that were hoping for an easy way to play their old 360 titles without having to own both consoles pretty much just had that dream shattered. If they still put that feature out there I will be surprised.
there was never ANY enthusiasm after the disaster they had with how they presented the information. if they had such great things waiting in the wings to tease people with a bit at a time they should have revealed all of it after the flop to try and salvage it.

to little to late I guess.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:21 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crash override View Post
That's the problem. People didn't want the connectivity check. The check was to make sure that the title was still owned by the original disc owner.

That means the check needed to happen while either the console was on or in the low-powered mode. That's the big thing people were so angry about and wouldn't let go of.

This kills a ton of future features related to account based verification as opposed to disc based verification...a ton of them.
They could have kept many of those features with the DRM system I previously described, where the primary console only has to check in with the servers when a game has been borrowed. A borrowing console checks in with the primary console when a game is borrowed and regularly checks in with the servers after that.

The cloud computing features and streaming features don't need the on-line check in at all.

I think the real reason the family library was removed was because they had only put it there to satiate consumers that were pissed off about the DRM. After they got rid of the on-line DRM, they didn't need it anymore.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:22 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Shapeshifter View Post
there was never ANY enthusiasm after the disaster they had with how they presented the information. if they had such great things waiting in the wings to tease people with a bit at a time they should have revealed all of it after the flop to try and salvage it.

to little to late I guess.
They needed to have those features in a better state for a reveal. If they had revealed the features without being able to demo them reliably people would have called it 'smoke and mirrors' and said it reeked of desperation and something cobbled together quickly.

Just look at the current reactions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aviphysics View Post
They could have kept many of those features with the DRM system I previously described, where the primary console only has to check in with the servers when a game has been borrowed. A borrowing console checks in with the primary console when a game is borrowed and regularly checks in with the servers after that.

The cloud computing features and streaming features don't need the on-line check in at all.

I think the real reason the family library was removed was because they had only put it there to satiate consumers that were pissed off about the DRM. After they got rid of the on-line DRM, they didn't need it anymore.
avi, that system wouldn't work. It sounds great in theory, but believe me when I say that it leaves open a lot of little loopholes that could allow for abuse. They had to make sure that the ability to abuse the system was as close to 0 as is possible before anyone would have considered it viable to present to partners.

The cloud computing features aren't gone...but I do have to ask which particular streaming feature you're referring to. That phrase alone could refer to a few.

The family library was removed entire due to the inability to control licensing without a frequent license check. There really was nothing else behind it.

Last edited by crash override : Jun 19, 2013 at 05:26 PM.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Shapeshifter View Post
there was never ANY enthusiasm after the disaster they had with how they presented the information. if they had such great things waiting in the wings to tease people with a bit at a time they should have revealed all of it after the flop to try and salvage it.

to little to late I guess.
TRUTH:

Their was no secret area 51 NDA features in wraps that depended on the DRM.

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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:25 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by crash override View Post
Treating disc based and digital based titles differently in regards to sharing is really complex programmatically.
It really isn't. For starters, they already have two policies. One where you buy a disc and can trade or sell it and another where you buy a digital copy and can't.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:27 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by crash override View Post
They needed to have those features in a better state for a reveal. If they had revealed the features without being able to demo them reliably people would have called it 'smoke and mirrors' and said it reeked of desperation and something cobbled together quickly.

Just look at the current reactions.
Rubbish, M$ basically fcucked this whole thing up badly, couldn't have gone any worse, and yet you are going to keep typing, "wow, you'll never know what great features you missed out on" till we all start headbutting our keyboards!

Seriously, if these "features" are now dead, tell us, otherwise stop posting about them!
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Lupine View Post
Family share is a good example. Instead of killing it, implement a check system that only applies if family share is enabled.
Yeah, I don't see why they technically couldn't still implement it, at least with digital downloads. Make it opt-in and then you'll be limited by the stricter DRM.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:29 PM   #46
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It really isn't, many PC games are distributed through Steam and several other services with varying restrictions already.

For starters, they already have two policies. One where you buy a disc and can trade or sell it and another where you buy a digital copy and can't.
There's a key component to what I said there. Sharing...

Steam and other digital marketplaces don't allow for sharing currently.

That's what I was trying to address. The sharing model is hard to control when you have 2 different mediums and have to keep them separate. It's easier to maintain when you have a similar model for licensing rights across both forms of media.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:30 PM   #47
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Rubbish, M$ basically fcucked this whole thing up badly, couldn't have gone any worse, and yet you are going to keep typing, "wow, you'll never know what great features you missed out on" till we all start headbutting our keyboards!

Seriously, if these "features" are now dead, tell us, otherwise stop posting about them!
I already did do that. I just said I have confirmation from friends that folks working on hammering those features to have them ready are losing their jobs.

I don't know how much more confirmation is required.

Also I'll thank you to not tell me what I can post or not post. If you feel my content is against the rules then the report button is down on the bottom left of my posts.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:30 PM   #48
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Incredible, so now they had some super secret stuff which was so good I could forgive them for the most distructive DRM of all time, and I'm supposed to feel bad about the poor microsoft guy ?

How stupid do you and microsoft think we are ?
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:32 PM   #49
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There's a key component to what I said there. Sharing...

Steam and other digital marketplaces don't allow for sharing currently.

That's what I was trying to address. The sharing model is hard to control when you have 2 different mediums and have to keep them separate. It's easier to maintain when you have a similar model for licensing rights across both forms of media.
Although I don't buy that cloud/digital games can't beat treated differently, we wanna know and were talking about the other features you alluded to.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:33 PM   #50
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Incredible, so now they had some super secret stuff which was so good I could forgive them for the most distructive DRM of all time, and I'm supposed to feel bad about the poor microsoft guy ?

How stupid do you and microsoft think we are ?
I feel sorry for anyone that loses a job. I didn't since I was already done...but I do feel bad for the people I worked with.

None of them are millionaires and likely make a lot less money than you realize...we're talking about Wal-Mart pay here.


Also I never said it would make anyone forgive or not forgive anything. I just said that a lot of features that were being worked on are now gone.

That's a fact that you can't argue.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:34 PM   #51
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Although I don't buy that cloud/digital games can't beat treated differently, we wanna know and were talking about the other features you alluded to.
Ask about specific scenarios and I'll say what I can...but would you mind doing so without the insults?

I realize you didn't toss an insult into this post...and I thank you for that, but please, they are not needed.

I'm just as human as the rest of you.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:36 PM   #52
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Ask about specific scenarios and I'll say what I can...but would you mind doing so without the insults?

I realize you didn't toss an insult into this post...and I thank you for that, but please, they are not needed.

I'm just as human as the rest of you.
How the hell can I give you a scenario if I have no clue what so ever on any of these features?
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:36 PM   #53
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I just said I have confirmation from friends that folks working on hammering those features to have them ready are losing their jobs.
I feel bad for your associates. But if Microsoft wants to let these good people go rather than re-assign them to other projects that's really no one else's fault but Microsoft's is it not?

And this whole debacle is 100% Microsoft's own doing for poorly communicating their original vision with the Xbox One.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:38 PM   #54
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ok, I got a scenario. I bought a game, and I had 9 friends that wanted to play it too, but were too poor. What could I do?
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:38 PM   #55
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Right, streaming and playing Xbox 360 games is the amazing features you've been referring too? Seriously?

In all the edits and post shuffles I missed it, still, nothing to shout about, 24 hour check ins or that, hmm, hard choice.....
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:39 PM   #56
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avi, that system wouldn't work. It sounds great in theory, but believe me when I say that it leaves open a lot of little loopholes that could allow for abuse. They had to make sure that the ability to abuse the system was as close to 0 as is possible before anyone would have considered it viable to present to partners.
Please tell me what those loopholes are.

Let me put it this way,
1) I want to play the game so my console asks yours for permission. Your console says yes and disables local play on that console.
2) Your console also sends a note to a sever that says that my permission is valid.
3) My console can then check in with the sever every hour (or 15 minutes or whatever) to see if it still has permission.
4) When I shutdown the game, my console tells the server I am done playing.
5) When you want to play, your console checks in with the server to see if I am done. If I am not done, it asks if you want to boot me from the game. If you say yes, the server call my console and tells my console to shut the game down (if they are nice, it might give me a 15 minute grace period). If my console is not on-line, it will be forced to shut the game down when it can't connect at the next mandatory check-in.
6) After sending the request to boot me from the game or finding that I am done playing, your console would let you play the game. If they are not nice, they may make you wait until my console releases the game or the mandatory check-in lapses.

Maybe I am deficient, but I don't see any loop holes in that system that didn't exist with the previous model. It actually seems more robust than the previous model, because people can't disconnect and play their game for 24 hours while a friend checks it out of the family library.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:40 PM   #57
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I feel bad for your associates. But if Microsoft wants to let these good people go rather than re-assign them to other projects that's really no one else's fault but Microsoft's is it not?

And this whole debacle is 100% Microsoft's own doing for poorly communicating their original vision with the Xbox One.
100% correct, nobody else to blame but M$ for this whole sorry debacle, just glad that they did a U-Turn and scrapped it all, consumer victory
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:40 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mickey Padge View Post
Right, streaming and playing Xbox 360 games is the amazing features you've been referring too? Seriously?
I'm not sure how the policy change stops them from offering a 360 streaming service for the One.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:43 PM   #59
crash override
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I feel bad for your associates. But if Microsoft wants to let these good people go rather than re-assign them to other projects that's really no one else's fault but Microsoft's is it not?

And this whole debacle is 100% Microsoft's own doing for poorly communicating their original vision with the Xbox One.
It's actually not Microsoft's choice. These folks are contractors and contractors are project based. That means when a project ends that they are let go. Some of these folks will likely find work on other projects in the near feature, but it means some time having to look for another contract while they are not working.

I don't disagree regarding bad communication at all. I've already stated that I think all of the good public speakers are gone at MS which leaves us with exec's and dev's, neither of which are great at public speaking in general.

I think they needed more time to prep their message, and should have very carefully focused on the features, and then very sparingly talked about the trade-off's...but they've never gotten that at all. Microsoft tries to be very upfront with the negatives, and then talk about the positives.

That never sits well with folks. Give them what they want to hear first...then tell them the price in as gentle a way as possible.
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:44 PM   #60
Ego
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Originally Posted by crash override View Post
I feel sorry for anyone that loses a job. I didn't since I was already done...but I do feel bad for the people I worked with.

None of them are millionaires and likely make a lot less money than you realize...we're talking about Wal-Mart pay here.


Also I never said it would make anyone forgive or not forgive anything. I just said that a lot of features that were being worked on are now gone.

That's a fact that you can't argue.
Another fact you can't argue is that now the console jumped from only working in 20 countries to working in ALL countries, inlcuding mine.
For this reason alone I couldn't give a rats ass about the poor alleged MS employee who apparently will lose his/her job because Satan no longer dictates xbox policies. Lol, btw, am I supposed to be impressed, seriously ? Also, keep in mind you are trying to impress an eastern european about how small paychecks are in the US for some people. That is amusing, might want to report back to the mothership and change that line.

Hopefully the PR brigade will back down in the weeks to come, it's really tiresome to be told time and time again how "bad" is actually "good", now that the mothership has changed its tune.
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