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Old Jan 14, 2021, 10:28 PM   #31
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SuperGeil
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Nunz, we know Intel's 14nm process is more advanced than the number suggest. I think the industry as a whole understands this... hence the ++++'s at the end. The amount of space between the transistors is much smaller than other's processes. It's well understood that their 14nm node is insanely dense. That does not do anything for power. Which is why rocket lake has two less cores than comet lake.

The biggest reason why Intel has dominated with the Core CPU line is because of their insane process advantage. There was a time where they were making 65nm Core's vs Athlons 90nm. I think they even reached 45nm for a brief time before AMD could even leave 90 completely. AMD fab technology was no slouch, but that just goes to show how much more advanced Intel was.

The point is, they don't have a process advantage anymore. Chances are they will never get back either. Moores law is dying and they have to get more creative with how they make CPU's. Which is why we are going to see stranger architectures come about from both AMD and Intel going forward. Even if they were making Rocket lake on 10nm like it was planned, it still would not be enough to convincingly beat AMD, as we see with Tiger Lake struggling against AMD.

For the last 5 years they have been poorly mismanaged. They should have saked Bob over a year ago.
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Old Jan 14, 2021, 10:33 PM   #32
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What I don’t understand is why they got a CEO with software experience leading a hardware engineering company. I see it as a recipe for disaster.
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Old Jan 14, 2021, 10:44 PM   #33
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Their 14nm is more advanced than the number suggests not because of the + refinements Intel has made, but because each fab defines their process by different standards, and Intel has always been by-far the most aggressive in that definition. Intel 10nm may very well be smaller than TSMC 7nm due to this. I'm not saying that's the case, but simply an example. What Intel defines as 14nm would potentially be called TSMC 18 or 20nm.

Regardless, I don't think power is necessarily the reason for the reduction in cores. I think the yields are better and it saves Intel money since their 14nm fabs are slowly reducing in capacity. The 10900K is fairly well binned (hence the sales of the 10850K for a price reduction) and I think it's taking too many waifers to pump out big chips of that size. The reduction to 8cores for right now fits perfectly with the new consoles and will be the mainstream chip to buy if you want Intel. They still have the HEDT line for higher core counts if you so choose.

I'm very much interested in what Intel releases to succeed the 10980XE and the LGA2066 chips. There are rumors it will be moving to a new chipset (X299 has been around for a long time now) and will make some significant strides in platform features. The mainstream consumer chips don't need to be higher than 8core since Intel sells 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 core HEDT processors.

The 10900K ate into the 10900X sales and really made that chip obsolete/DOA from the beginning. Maybe the reduction to 8cores is an acknowledgement of that. Who knows.

Completely agree that they've been mismanaged for a while now. They rode the laurels of their obliteration of AMD for far too long and became complacent.
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Old Jan 14, 2021, 10:54 PM   #34
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Ok. It's understood Intel fab tech is advanced. The numbers are not apples and apples. They still lost their advantage. It's not a debate about the intricacies of their node tech. They are behind now in process advantage, at best case they are even.

They back-ported Rocket Lake to 14nm from 10nm, because of yields. They cut two cores because the power envelope was too high.
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 06:21 AM   #35
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Why are you just repeating everything I've said? Clearly from reading this thread, some did not understand that the numbers are not comparable from one fab to another. I've also acknowledged that Intel lost their fab lead, and I said myself that if they don't have a competitor in two years time, and get their fabrication technology back under control, then Intel will be in real danger.

Just because I don't hate Intel because it's the flavor of the day, does not mean I cannot recognize the mistakes.
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 12:01 PM   #36
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The fact intels 14nm chips can compete and beat zen 3 is testament to their engineering prowess.
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 12:24 PM   #37
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Guise, I'm lazy, why is z590 a thing?

Didn't z490 already have pci-e 4.0 support?
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 12:43 PM   #38
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Yes but only 20 pcie lanes direct from CPU - so a x16 GPU slot and an m.2 drive. The lanes from chipset are still pcie 3.0 (DMI link x4).

On Z590 the chipset lanes are also pcie 4.0. (DMI link x8).
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 12:52 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by metroidfox View Post
Yeah, but the way things are done, 8 cores currently contain all this extra logic for routing between high power, and low power states.


With this big.little design, you take away that complexity (may imply higher clockspeed too), and if you really don't care about power, can have all high power, and 8 low power cores on.
That's an interesting thought. I hadn't looked at it that way. The 8 big cores may benefit from not needing low power logic... hrmm.
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 12:56 PM   #40
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Not much info on new architecture but it seems L1 and L2 cache have been doubled on RKL. FYI
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 02:57 PM   #41
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What I don’t understand is why they got a CEO with software experience leading a hardware engineering company. I see it as a recipe for disaster.

This is a good question, but their new CEO isn't just a software guy. He was involved in the design of some of their early, 80xxx series processors.
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 03:24 PM   #42
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I am thinking this 11th gen Intel build is going to be grand.
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 08:55 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Nunz View Post
Just because I don't hate Intel because it's the flavor of the day, does not mean I cannot recognize the mistakes.
It's not about hating Intel. Not sure where you get that or why.
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 10:17 PM   #44
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I don't really agree that the extent of Intel's failures have been exaggerated. True, they had enough of a lead that they aren't in danger of going out of business yet, but they had a huge competitive advantage with their fabs that they completely managed to fritter away.

They went from having a two or three year process lead to being behind now. Even accounting for the different naming schemes, they are still behind, since they don't have a 7nm equivalent producing actual performance products (what they call 10 nm).

Maybe they catch back up with 5nm, but like Nunz said if you are struggling at one process node, why would you expect the next to be better? If they continue on as they have, they could be in big trouble in another year or two.
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Old Jan 15, 2021, 10:22 PM   #45
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Because general knowledge and tech has caught up to make that easier. When they pushed for 10nm it was bleeding edge, really hard and it just didn't pan out. That happens, Intel got a little lucky in the past and when they got to 10nm it just fell apart. I've heard it described that making node jumps when you pushing the leading edge is a bit of a gamble.
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Old Jan 16, 2021, 02:34 PM   #46
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Microcenter has a Z490 Maximus APEX for $350 open box, and a 10900K on sale for $450. I'm so, so tempted.. two extra cores would be nice, and I have 9 days off so it would be fun tweaking. ****!!

I have zero issues with my 9900K but good Lord that is a hell of a deal.
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Old Jan 16, 2021, 07:42 PM   #47
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It may be fine but you might want to check pcie 4.0 support on the Apex, only 2 ASUS boards are confirmed to have all features for proper support. Also, it only has 2 DRAM slots if that bothers you.

If you scroll to the bottom it shows each vendors boards that have been tested.

https://wccftech.com/z490-motherboar...-gigabyte/amp/
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Old Jan 16, 2021, 07:43 PM   #48
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Sorry, it's not an APEX, it's a Formula. Also wccftech link doesn't make sense. They say only the Maximus EXTREME and the HERO have PCIE4.0 support, but the Hero is the bottom of the barrel of Maximus boards; cheapest option. If the Hero has it, the Formula, APEX, and Code should have it. The Formula is a step above the Hero, so who knows. I don't really care about 4.0 anyway as I don't need it (just bought another NVME that's 3.0) and I have no intention of grabbing an 11900K.

My current EVGA Z390 DARK is also only 2 DIMM slots. I prefer that; better overclocking potential for the ram.

Buddy is buying my stuff for sure, so I'm heading tomorrow to Microcenter. I'm hoping someone from OCN responds to my post and has a list of batch#'s that are good overclockers. My store has 25+ chips in stock, so I'm gonna ask the guy if I can sift through them and grab a good chip.

I want 5.1-5.2Ghz all-core. Should be doable with an SP90+ chip.
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Old Jan 16, 2021, 07:51 PM   #49
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I think the Formula has a better chance for support but you may still want to get confirmation. Z490 support is a bit of a shiit show, especially from ASUS for some reason - they appear to have skimped at the HW level for most of their line up but I have a feeling Formula is OK.. ?

I've edited my post with link.
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Old Jan 16, 2021, 07:55 PM   #50
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The ranking order for the Maximus boards is:

Extreme
APEX / CODE (code is usually a mini itx board)
Formula
Hero

That link says the Hero and Extreme have it. I can't see the Formula or APEX not, but then again it is Asus and after the debacle with the Z390 Maximus Hero I had, I'm not super enthusiastic about another Asus board. If it wasn't for the $100 off for being open box, I wouldn't even touch it.
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Old Jan 16, 2021, 08:06 PM   #51
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Yeh that's how I read it as well, support on extreme and hero, which is a bit confusing.
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Old Jan 17, 2021, 04:21 AM   #52
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Intel 11th Gen Rocket Lake & Comet Lake Refresh CPUs Specs & Pre-Order Prices Listed Online, Core i9-11900K Cheaper Than i9-10900K




https://wccftech.com/intel-11th-gen-...listed-online/
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Old Jan 17, 2021, 07:53 AM   #53
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Today's the day
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Old Jan 17, 2021, 08:15 AM   #54
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Man I can’t pull the trigger fast enough.
Let’s hope supply is good at launch.

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Old Jan 17, 2021, 12:14 PM   #55
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Walked in, and someone bought the open box Formula I wanted. Literally seen the guy leaving with it. ****!

They had an open box Maximus Extreme .. so uh .. I got that one. Oops.
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Old Jan 17, 2021, 03:51 PM   #56
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Nice one nunz, that's a killer board.


KAC - Why are you so keen to ditch the 5900x?


Looking forward to this upgrade - should result in CPU, GPU, and storage performance gains. Will gain a nice chunk of IPC which is what I need the most plus pcie 4.0 support for GPU and a 1TB 980 pro I have sitting here. Resizable Bar should be ready in Nv drivers by then too so that's another small bump at the same time.
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Old Jan 17, 2021, 04:05 PM   #57
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Maybe Santa Claus will come in march ....
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Old Jan 17, 2021, 05:26 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by KAC View Post
Man I can’t pull the trigger fast enough.
Let’s hope supply is good at launch.
Buy a 3090! This isn’t going to get you anything over the 5900x
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Old Jan 17, 2021, 05:31 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Nascar24 View Post
Buy a 3090! This isn’t going to get you anything over the 5900x
How many times have we told him this??

No, the 3090 FE is too loud...
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By your retarded posts i can only conclude you haven't been spanked enough.

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Old Jan 17, 2021, 06:11 PM   #60
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Just got everything booted up. Unfortunately looks like I have an SP63 chip, which is typically the worst bin possible.

We will see how it does, but I'm expecting to barely pull 5Ghz all-core now.

Updating BIOS. I'm also in a dilemma; my sound-card doesn't fit in the PCIeX4 slot due to the size of the 3080, and putting it in the PCIEX16_2 slot is forcing my GPU into x8 mode. Frustrating. I feel like every board I buy, no matter how expensive, I end up having some sort of issue with.

Should have bought that 10980XE and got off this garbage consumer platform. Tired of the complete lack of PCIE lanes.
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Eat this protein bar, for it is of my body. And drink this creatine shake, for it is my blood.
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Last edited by Nunz : Jan 17, 2021 at 06:18 PM.
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