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Old Sep 23, 2011, 02:20 PM   #1
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nomore
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Nvidia fuels PC vs Console Fire = PC Super Awesome


During an NVIDIA conference call, a couple of interesting tidbits were disclosed that adds some fuel to the 'PC vs. Console' fire - and for once, they work to the favor of PC gamers. Would you believe that by 2014, PC game sales are expected to surpass console game sales?







"What defines a 'PC'?" is a question that came to mind after seeing this graph, but it appears that it's just what we think it is... a PC; desktop or notebook. Mobile gaming products such as tablets and smart phones are not included in this forecast (likely a good thing, as I'm sure it'd put a damper on things).

I wish tablets were included since it doesn't get any more PC than that.


When the Xbox 360 was released in 2005, it offered some sweet graphics for the time, but capabilities-wise, PCs were still about 40% faster. Since the current crop of consoles haven't budged in terms of performance, NVIDIA said that the current crop of GPUs make the PC up to 10x as powerful as consoles - and in some regards, I'd be willing to bet that delta could increase even more.
If Microsoft or Sony release a new console next year, or the year after, they're both likely to blow their predecessors out of the water in terms of graphics and other features. But we're still going to face the problem of the last generation, where PCs are going to be more capable from the get-go, and will only get better as time passes.



For development of Battlefield 3, EA set out to make the PC the best platform possible to experience the game. Patrick Bach, EA's Executive Producer for the game has said, "PCs are way more powerful than consoles today. We're aiming to use the PC to set the bar." As a result, BF3 is using an entirely different lighting engine than the one consoles will see, and of course, DirectX 11 is also being added into the mix, among other capabilities (larger maps, more players per map).
We must ask - where will we be six years from now? Will we be greeting Battlefield 5 and looking back at Battlefield 3, wondering what we were so impressed about?
Another interesting statistic that NVIDIA raised is this one:




As of 2008, boxed copies of games had paltry sales compared to digital sales, and nothing at all looks to change. During 2011, nearly $15 billion is going to be attributed to digital sales while $2.5 billion belong to boxed copies. This is a trend I have to admit I am not surprised by. I'll never purchase another boxed copy if I can help it.
The death of PC gaming has long been a mocking-point of console gamers, but recent trends show that the PC has nothing to stress over. One such trend is free-to-play, where games are inherently free, but support paid-services such as purchasing in-game items. This has proven wildly successful, and has even caused the odd MMORPG to get rid of it subscription fee. It's also caused a lot of games to be developed with the F2P mechanic decided from the get-go.
League of Legends is one good example. With a reported 15 million gamers worldwide, there are more people playing it than World of Warcraft. Games like these just don't work that well on consoles (where the bulk of the profits are the result of off-the-shelf games), but on the PC... they're thriving. Even Valve has jumped on the bandwagon by regularly releasing free-to-play games on its Steam platform.

One of the biggest pluses of the PC is modding, and without it, games like League of Legends and Defense of the Ancients may not even exist. There are over 15 million playing LoL and I'm sure the numbers are comparable with DoTA, Heroes of Newerth and the ton of other free-to-play games.
I admit I am not a fan of the free-to-play mechanic, but there's little denying that it's done well to surge interest in PC gaming, which should as a whole help the platform - and based on the trends shown in the top-most graph, it already has. Not only are these games popular, but competitions are regularly held that offer million-dollar prizes. In one of the below photos, a room filled with 20,000 game spectators is shown, watching a StarCraft II competition, with a mention that 35 million gamers were streaming the event from 171 different countries.


I think it's safe to say that PC gaming is alive and well, regardless of how it's being accomplished. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go indulge in some high-resolution gaming


for more:
http://techgage.com/article/nvidia_t...gaming_trends/
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 02:28 PM   #2
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what makes them think the consistent gap between PC and Console revenue is going to suddenly change in 2012?
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 03:09 PM   #3
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Even looking at 2010 on that chart things look fine for PCs. Consider that there are three console platforms that share that grey line. It suggests that their might have been more PC game sales then any individual console.

I wonder how they got that PC game sales number though. With all the different channels and ways to buy PC games it seems like it would be hard to figure.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 03:16 PM   #4
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Err. That is some seriously stupid crap these nVidia guys came up with.
a) It does not take into account launch of new consoles as there is no sudden uptake in any of the years 2012/13
b) Reasons given for PC sales increase are just pulled out of their asses. 15 million people maybe playing these games but the price they are paying is far less than what you would pay on a console
c) Digital vs. Package numbers are not proven. They are just made out of thin air. How can nVidia claim that digi distribution is a 15 B market? Where is the proof

Ask people who are selling desktops. I have known 2 computer shops that closed down within past 2 years that I am in UAE. It is same in Pakistan. No one buys computers anymore. X360 and PS3 uptake is still very strong.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 03:17 PM   #5
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 03:41 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by KickAssCop View Post
Err. That is some seriously stupid crap these nVidia guys came up with.
a) It does not take into account launch of new consoles as there is no sudden uptake in any of the years 2012/13
b) Reasons given for PC sales increase are just pulled out of their asses. 15 million people maybe playing these games but the price they are paying is far less than what you would pay on a console
c) Digital vs. Package numbers are not proven. They are just made out of thin air. How can nVidia claim that digi distribution is a 15 B market? Where is the proof

Ask people who are selling desktops. I have known 2 computer shops that closed down within past 2 years that I am in UAE. It is same in Pakistan. No one buys computers anymore. X360 and PS3 uptake is still very strong.
That's because anyone who has a PC it's most likely a really old one from the boom days when everyone got PC's, of those people maybe 1 person in the household got into using it and has most likely gone and built a new one instead of buying from dell or other such companies. So after the first bought computer its hard to track total PC users because most I would say are built or bought pre built from hardware sites which I don't think are counted into PC sales.

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Old Sep 23, 2011, 03:49 PM   #7
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A pleasant PC Gaming experience has gotten to be a whole lot cheaper as well. Where'as it was nearly required to have a fast CPU and GPU to have a pleasant experience, you can now get capable CPUs and GPUs for much less and fully enjoy the experience.

It is my feeling that this has a decent role to play in what is helping to propel PC gaming back into mainstream action.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 03:56 PM   #8
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I have insane difficulty in selling off parts. Previously, I could sell off a used VC within days and get the latest and fastest. Now I have to put up an ad for months before a card gets sold. Heck my current VC is still on sale for past 4 weeks and I have gotten stupid offers for it that I am not willing to accept. Previously, I could name a price and get it sold.

As for desktops, manufacturers are pulling the plug on them as well and it is because of low demand. This is really driven by businesses since many companies have started providing laptops to their employees. In my company, no one has a desktop except EAs. I know banks with similar policies now. Same for FMCG companies, oil and gas industry, heck construction companies have moved to laptops only. When people think having a desktop is obsolete the small population that still plays PC games will more and more become a niche market.

Heck WoW players can now game on laptops and that is about 2 millions PC gamers at the least that can potentially throw away their desktops and still be doing PC gaming.

Either way, nV forecast is bullcrap. Let's revisit thread in 2013 and then talk about it lol.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 04:00 PM   #9
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I dont see PC gaming passing console gaming in sales...at all.. if ever again.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 04:17 PM   #10
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Well, last rumors I heard (could have changed by now, been a while) were that AMD was going to have the gpu's in all 3 of the next-gen consoles. Maybe that's why Nvidia is singing the praises of the future of PC gaming.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 04:23 PM   #11
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I don't see the end of desktops as the end of PC gaming. Laptops with decent GPUs have been getting a lot cheaper.

For example, if you are already getting a $400-$500 laptop it will still be cheaper to spend an extra $100-$400 for a laptop with a decent GPU than buy a next gen console. Wouldn't be surprised if they will also be pretty close spec wise. The laptop of course has the advantage of a huge backlog of cheap games and way more portability. Just plugin an HDMI cable and gamepad and you can get that big screen experience.

If Fusion keeps going like it has been then there will be a lot of people in the coming years able to game on their laptops. Now if only Intel would lead, follow or get out of the way. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I am guessing even an A6 sitting all by itself is more powerful than a 360.

I think that all reads as a jumbled mess but my point is simple...
People no longer "need" a desktop for pc gaming so their decline won't mark the end of pc gaming. Just a transition.

IMO console gaming died as soon as most AAA titles started dropping split screen support. The only reason I have ever owned a console is to play games with friends as a group. These days everyone just brings their laptop. Sometime this means we can only play older titles that can run on their intel IGP but it's still more fun to sht talk in person no matter what game you are playing.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 05:00 PM   #12
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So, company which is only selling PC parts predicts boom in PC games...

I'm sure the PC market is huge, in fact I know it is, however I'm willing to bet a massive chunk of that market is indie games, those which don't require the latest and greatest in PC graphics hardware... in fact probably a perfect target market for AMD's APUs, which I guess is the irony here

Right now I would say we are in a transistion period; AAA PC games will get a bit more love but that's because we are an estimated 12 months away from beta console devkits from MS and Sony which are going to hold DX11+ parts thus the extra PC love is, in part, "practise" for this next generation of hardware. To make a high end PC game these days you need to get your tools, pipelines and renderer into shape, something which will be good for the next generation and, from a company point of view, cut down 'ramp up' time for games in that generation.

It's likely that (assuming the world doesn't end in 2012 ) that 2013 will see the release of the next generation, with announcements expected at E3 that year from both players.

Don't get me wrong, PC gaming isn't dead or dying, that much is certain, but NV are in the PC business so they are going to talk it up as best they can.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 05:05 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by bobvodka View Post
So, company which is only selling PC parts predicts boom in PC games...
They make, or at least designed, the PS3 GPU.

BTW I don't think companies make multi million dollar games for "practice". We almost always see one or two AAA PC titles a year.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 05:15 PM   #14
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They make, or at least designed, the PS3 GPU.

BTW I don't think companies make multi million dollar games for "practice". We almost always see one or two AAA PC titles a year.
I'm going to take it a bit further. Who wants to bet that NV doesn't have any design wins for the next generation of consoles? Downplaying consoles to make themselves look better to investors.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 05:18 PM   #15
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I dont see PC gaming passing console gaming in sales...at all.. if ever again.
overall it may have already happened.

remember those indie developers saying they sell a lot more copies through steam, and through other pc digital distribution services than xbla and psn???

and remember 70% of activision's profit comes from non-console based games???
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33965038

it is very difficult to keep track of pc game sales since there are so many distribution services so I don't know how nvidia came up with those numbers, but don't think for a second that PC game sales would not have been more than console game sales Worldwide.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 05:21 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by nomore View Post
overall it may have already happened.

remember those indie developers saying they sell a lot more copies through steam, and through other pc digital distribution services than xbla and psn???

and remember 70% of activision's profit comes from non-console based games???
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33965038

it is very difficult to keep track of pc game sales since there are so many distribution services so I don't know how nvidia came up with those numbers, but don't think for a second that PC game sales would not have been more than console sales Worldwide.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 05:23 PM   #17
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Activision cheats, they have world of warcraft.

if EA came out and said they make more profit through non-console games, then you were going to say EA cheats because they have Sims?
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I'd swear the PC is the Dracula of gaming. Old and powerful, somebody is always trying to kill it, but it always comes back from the dead, strong as ever.
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no matter how you look at it, it's still better on PC
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 05:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by KickAssCop View Post
a) It does not take into account launch of new consoles as there is no sudden uptake in any of the years 2012/13
b) Reasons given for PC sales increase are just pulled out of their asses. 15 million people maybe playing these games but the price they are paying is far less than what you would pay on a console
c) Digital vs. Package numbers are not proven. They are just made out of thin air. How can nVidia claim that digi distribution is a 15 B market? Where is the proof

Ask people who are selling desktops. I have known 2 computer shops that closed down within past 2 years that I am in UAE. It is same in Pakistan. No one buys computers anymore. X360 and PS3 uptake is still very strong.
a) when a new console is launch usually there are only very few launch titles.
new console launch can be pushed back to 2014-2015 based on the rumors and economy.

b)used games/renting is very popular with console gamers and because of the economy how do you know console gamers arent taking that route more often and are not paying less?
you do know that used game sales and renting doesn't really bring much of a profit to the publishers/developers, right?

c) I do have my concerns about that number. but nvidia can be getting that number from the publishers/developers that they are working with.

you do realize all kinda shops are closing because of the economy, right?
also people don't need to buy computers, if you got a computer within the last 4-5 years, heck you can do just one video card upgrade and still pretty much play every single game out there.


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Originally Posted by KickAssCop View Post
I have insane difficulty in selling off parts. Previously, I could sell off a used VC within days and get the latest and fastest. Now I have to put up an ad for months before a card gets sold. Heck my current VC is still on sale for past 4 weeks and I have gotten stupid offers for it that I am not willing to accept. Previously, I could name a price and get it sold.
I answer that with what I said above.

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Originally Posted by KickAssCop View Post
As for desktops, manufacturers are pulling the plug on them as well and it is because of low demand. This is really driven by businesses since many companies have started providing laptops to their employees. In my company, no one has a desktop except EAs. I know banks with similar policies now. Same for FMCG companies, oil and gas industry, heck construction companies have moved to laptops only. When people think having a desktop is obsolete the small population that still plays PC games will more and more become a niche market.
pc gaming is not just desktops anymore, so who cares?
it is laptops, tablets, browser based games, or even games that can be played on your cellphone.
sure desktops will always exist since they are more powerful. but pc gaming expanded quite a lot in the last few years.
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I'd swear the PC is the Dracula of gaming. Old and powerful, somebody is always trying to kill it, but it always comes back from the dead, strong as ever.
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no matter how you look at it, it's still better on PC

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Old Sep 23, 2011, 08:01 PM   #19
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I would put Tablets and Smartphones in the handheld segment. They are definitely not PCs. At least not yet. We can return to the topic when the iPad no longer needs a notebook or desktop to receive updates (Who the hell had that lame idea).
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 08:13 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by aviphysics View Post
They make, or at least designed, the PS3 GPU.
Yep, for hardware which is coming towards EOL. Current smart money is on AMD having tied up all the consoles for the coming generation.

In fact, as a graphics coder, I HOPE that's the case because making things work correctly on two different GPUs is a right pain in the arse. If both consoles could come out with simular GPU tech this would make life much easier, rather than the last gen where is seems Sony decided to not spend any real money on the GPU at all... *grumble grumble*

Quote:
BTW I don't think companies make multi million dollar games for "practice". We almost always see one or two AAA PC titles a year.
Well, it's not like they went "meh, we'll make the game, who cares if it sells..." and I suspect most of the engineering effort was sunk into the PS3 and X360 versions (probably a little more on the latter to get their tile based deferred lighting working without SPUs).

However they could have left it at that, or they could have thrown a DX9 version out, but it makes good economic sense at this point in the life cycle to sink engineering effort into doing things The DX11 Way so that, a year from now, when the consoles hit with DX11 hardware they have a working knowledge base to jump off from.

And it's not just the graphics coders; artists have to get use to new techniques as well, both on the hardware side and how they work with it down to working at higher resolutions and what they can do which looks correct in them. For a full on DX11 game the whole art pipeline probably needs looking at, better to take a game to try it out, work out the kinks and learn lessons for the future instead of wait around until the consoles drop and suddenly go '****.. how do we work with this stuff?!?'

Even if the PC version sold 1/8th the copies of the consoles this would still be a good investment from a 'lessons learnt' point of view and is very forward looking from the company.

I argued the same thing when we were planning our next project at work; that we should sack off DX9 and focus on DX11 on the PC so that the rendering team were all up to speed for the next console generation. As it turns out the project never got off the ground but I maintain it is the clever thing to do at this point.

So, yes, 'practise' is the right term because they are laying the ground work for future titles and hardware.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 08:35 PM   #21
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what makes them think the consistent gap between PC and Console revenue is going to suddenly change in 2012?
Remember that in 2012 the earth will renew itself and cleanse all the evil consoles from the face of the planet.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 10:26 PM   #22
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I would put Tablets and Smartphones in the handheld segment. They are definitely not PCs. At least not yet.
PC stands for Personal Computer, it doesn't get more personal than tablets and smartphones.
sure they have their limitations but I would not call them anything else but a PC or a portable PC.
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no matter how you look at it, it's still better on PC

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Old Sep 23, 2011, 11:27 PM   #23
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PC stands for Personal Computer, it doesn't get more personal than tablets and smartphones.
sure they have their limitations but I would not call them anything else but a PC or a portable PC.

Uuuuuugggghhhhh.... This is not a debate I want to have.

Lets just call it x86 sales and leave it at that. That is what I and 99% of the rest of the world mean by PC anyway.
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 12:17 AM   #24
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That is what I and 99% of the rest of the world mean by PC anyway.
lets help 99% of the rest of the world and you then:


tablet computer

A complete computer contained in a touch screen. Tablet computers can be specialized for Internet use only or be full-blown, general-purpose PCs. The distinguishing characteristic is the use of the screen as an input device using a stylus or finger. In 2000, Microsoft introduced a Windows tablet running a version of Windows XP (see Tablet PC).

iPad, Android and Windows
After years of limited success with tablets from a variety of vendors, in 2010, Apple's iPad created a revolution nearly as great as it did with the iPhone. However, Android came close on the iPad's heels with a variety of different models from several vendors. The iPad, Android and Windows tablets are the three major tablet platforms, each of which runs apps written only for their operating systems.


http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictiona...ablet+computer


Not so long ago, the defining characteristic of a tablet computer, along with its diminutive form, was that it accepted input via pen or stylus (think of signing for a package) and included an integrated keyboard.

In those days, tablets did not feature a sexy interface or the ability to watch movies. You could drop one out of a second-story window and there would be a good chance it would survive. Rugged industrial tablets are still being used today, of course, with Symbol (now part of Motorola), Panasonic, and Microsoft among the top vendors.
But now all the news is around the iPad-type tablets. The pen and keyboard are long gone. Today’s tablets, also called “slates,” are all about the touchscreen, which provides the pleasingly interactive experience consumers crave. The new media-centric tablets run modified versions of PC operating systems, including Apple’s iOS, which allow touch-based control.

Not all tablets are full PCs, though many are. And that’s where they can get confused with netbooks, another small computer. Netbooks, by contrast, were designed to be super lightweight and portable while also low cost. Netbooks do not have touchscreen interfaces and are not media-centric—at least, not now

http://www.channelprosmb.com/article...ng-Definition/


interesting how Smartphone definition is very similar to the definition of Pocket PCs.
Pocket PC is "a handheld device that enables users to store and retrieve e-mail, contacts, appointments, tasks, play multimedia files, games, exchange text messages with Windows Live Messenger (formerly known as MSN Messenger), browse the Web, and more."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_PC

I don't know why somebody would not even consider Smartphones as a PC when the simplest definition is features of a PC integrated with basic mobile phones through an OS just like a PC.

even lately definition of gaming consoles are changing and they are becoming a PC and there are enough articles about that.
I would not be surprised soon everything just becomes a PC or a PC wannabe pretty much.
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no matter how you look at it, it's still better on PC

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Old Sep 24, 2011, 10:45 AM   #25
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I agree 100% with you.
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 12:49 PM   #26
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The point is that smartpones/tablets are nearly as idiotproofed as a game console. Without unsupported hacking, they don't let you get at the innards, you can't even manage files for chrissakes. Apps can't interact with each other. Their control schemes are incredibly simplified touch vs a PC keyboard. You can't even buy any apps that aren't approved by a central authority, let alone install mods. As far as gamers are concerned they are effectively consoles, except most of the games are actually dumber/simpler than what you could find on a DS or PSP.

What's really frightening is between Windows 8 and Google's OS, I think the future of x86 is also going to be these kind of locked-down simplistic tablet environments. Too many people still can't understand computers in our tech age and there will be the demand for something simple, errorfree, and idiot-proof.

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Old Sep 24, 2011, 05:09 PM   #27
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The point is that smartpones/tablets are nearly as idiotproofed as a game console. Without unsupported hacking, they don't let you get at the innards, you can't even manage files for chrissakes. Apps can't interact with each other. Their control schemes are incredibly simplified touch vs a PC keyboard. You can't even buy any apps that aren't approved by a central authority, let alone install mods. As far as gamers are concerned they are effectively consoles, except most of the games are actually dumber/simpler than what you could find on a DS or PSP.

What's really frightening is between Windows 8 and Google's OS, I think the future of x86 is also going to be these kind of locked-down simplistic tablet environments. Too many people still can't understand computers in our tech age and there will be the demand for something simple, errorfree, and idiot-proof.
Smartphones are just as locked down as any console... which means they arent. People will always find a way to get things to work. iOS and Android are definitely not locked down... not sure how the modding scene is on Windows Phone... but Im sure as soon as it gains popularity that will be cracked too.
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 05:24 PM   #28
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Smartphones are just as locked down as any console... which means they arent. People will always find a way to get things to work. iOS and Android are definitely not locked down... not sure how the modding scene is on Windows Phone... but Im sure as soon as it gains popularity that will be cracked too.
The small % cracking their devices is irrelevant because the commerical products are marketed to those who can't figure this out. Gears of war is not written for people that have keyboard and mouse and can download and install mods. Even though some people will mess around the backend the big commerical products are going to increasingly lose functionality. Look forward to Word that can't edit anything that isn't stuck in your Documents folder. WMP that will only play things obtained through official stores. And anyone who wants to make an app without MS/some other approval will be doing so for free or for a very small market segment. Anyone "duplicating OS functionality" like firefox and mozilla eliminated, or just turned into reskins of IE. Just apply iOS logic to desktop software and games, the result isn't pretty.
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 05:32 PM   #29
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The small % cracking their devices is irrelevant because
Its larger than you think buddy.

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Gears of war is not written for people that have keyboard and mouse and can download and install mods.
No game is written for anyone at all to crack it..keyboard or not.

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Look forward to Word that can't edit anything that isn't stuck in your Documents folder.
We'll never see the day on a full fledged PC.


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And anyone who wants to make an app without MS/some other approval will be doing so for free or for a very small market segment.
Not necessarily true, Apple does this and it spawned Cydia.. plenty of devs making good money on there. Probably not as much money as the official app store, but still making some good money if the app is worth it.
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 06:18 PM   #30
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Look forward to Word that can't edit anything that isn't stuck in your Documents folder. WMP that will only play things obtained through official stores. And anyone who wants to make an app without MS/some other approval will be doing so for free or for a very small market segment. Anyone "duplicating OS functionality" like firefox and mozilla eliminated, or just turned into reskins of IE. Just apply iOS logic to desktop software and games, the result isn't pretty.
Logic Fail.
This won't happen, the moment MS try to do ANY of this the US or EU govening bodies would open a can of Anti-trust investigations on their arse.

I say logic fail because you look at iOS as an example, however despite what Apple might want you to belive unlike MS they DON'T have a virtual monopoly and thus don't get struck with the same anti-trust stick.
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