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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:31 PM   #1
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Djinn
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Angry A more serious Free Speech issue...

IMO, this is a FAR more serious "free speech" issue than Al Franken tackling a heckler. I've cut and pasted the selected paragraphs below, but you can read the whole thing here. It's the last paragraph (quoted below) that concerns me.
Quote:
Are You On Uncle Sam's No Fly List?
The war on terror casts a wide net and has so far prevented a second September 11th. But is that net too wide? CBS 2 has learned of a top secret government list of Americans who are not allowed on any commercial airlines.

The list is now alleged to include not only suspected terrorists and those believed to be a threat to aviation security but civil rights activists say it also targets people based on their political views. A list that is thought to include members of the Green Party, a Jesuit priest who is a peace activist and two civil rights attorneys.

The airport counter: This is as far as Rebecca Gordon and Janet Adams say they are allowed to go at San Francisco International Airport. The last time they checked in for a flight to Boston to visit Gordon's 80-year-old father, an airline employee called the police.

So why would two women in their 50's, U.S. citizens, San Francisco homeowners and long-time peace activists with no criminal records be on a federal watch list with suspected terrorists?

In Gordon and Adams’ case, the ACLU believes the couple may have been targeted for their work on War Times, a free bilingual newspaper that has been critical of the war and the Bush administration's policies on terrorism.
For more sources and info, do a Google or Google News search for "Rebecca Gordon" "Janet Adams"
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:34 PM   #2
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WTF!!?!?!!!


We have truly turned into a police state. This has gone way too far.

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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:34 PM   #3
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This is getting out of hand...
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:38 PM   #4
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Quote:
In Gordon and Adams’ case, the ACLU believes the couple may have been targeted for their work on War Times, a free bilingual newspaper that has been critical of the war and the Bush administration's policies on terrorism.
seems like the Gov is trying to protect its interests, fine by me, the gov would not blacklist theme without a good reason and i guess it had one so.....
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:41 PM   #5
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" the gov would not blacklist theme without a good reason"

Could that be a similar reason to bush blacklisting all those black voters in Florida?
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by logen99999
seems like the Gov is trying to protect its interests, fine by me, the gov would not blacklist theme without a good reason and i guess it had one so.....
So naive
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:43 PM   #7
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Notice the word 'alleged'. I didn't make the list, none of us know the makeup of said list or the rationale for who is on it. I suspect we'll learn more soon.

If it is as the article describes, that's pretty nuts.

(And AGAIN, for the record, Al Franken called it a free speech issue and it clearly wasn't. I said that like 3 times on that thread to you, and you never once acknowledged that fact. Grr. lol)
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by McDusty
" the gov would not blacklist theme without a good reason"

Could that be a similar reason to bush blacklisting all those black voters in Florida?
hmm, dont know anything about, care to explain?
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by logen99999
seems like the Gov is trying to protect its interests, fine by me, the gov would not blacklist theme without a good reason and i guess it had one so.....
I'm guessing it was because the newsletter was bilingual. Quebec - watch out!
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by McDusty
" the gov would not blacklist theme without a good reason"

Could that be a similar reason to bush blacklisting all those black voters in Florida?
Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:47 PM   #11
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That is not a free speech issue in any sense. The governmnet can suggest that companies do not allow consumers to use their products. Companies can refuse, but then the government has the right to pull any tax abatements and contracts.


You do not have a right to be able to fly on a private corporations airplane. If the government has created a list of suspected terrorists, or their sympathizers (which I suspect these people are) then odds are the airlines are going to follow it. After all the only threats are not from Al Queda. It would be no surprise to see someone like this (extremists and supporters) or even someone like an environmentalist wacko highjack an airline, or detonate a bomb. There is past precendent throughout the world and US history that suggests that the most dangerous terrorists are those on your own soil.

I have a feeling that the whole truth is not being told about these people. There are probably shady donations or trips in their past that have singled them out. Not that they are necessarily bad, but their actions have raised certain suspicions.

But, this is in no way a rights issue.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:52 PM   #12
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Haha ... ow it wasn't a joke
Interesting you should bring up flying, I met with a friend recently he knows a great deal about flying and he said that it was ******** that the Air France planes (or any other plane coming from Europe) flying to America would be the target for terrorism, he reasonned that they'd try the same as 9/11 so they'd need fuel for the big explosion which would be all gone if the plane comes in from France.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 02:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by XSBagage
Haha ... ow it wasn't a joke
Interesting you should bring up flying, I met with a friend recently he knows a great deal about flying and he said that it was ******** that the Air France planes (or any other plane coming from Europe) flying to America would be the target for terrorism, he reasonned that they'd try the same as 9/11 so they'd need fuel for the big explosion which would be all gone if the plane comes in from France.
It's not bad reasoning, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen. It just means it wouldn't be as 'choice' a target.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:03 PM   #14
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true they are much more likely to take an outbound or internal plane -and considering the shoddy american airport security (a person arrived at heathrow from america with bullets on his person) whats to stop them.

Anyway - the florida thing - for logen99999

the report that uncovered it all -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/pr...ght/palast.ram
transcript (if you don't have broadband) - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1174115.stm

updates -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1372065.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1440130.stm
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by irwincur
You do not have a right to be able to fly on a private corporations airplane. If the government has created a list of suspected terrorists, or their sympathizers (which I suspect these people are) then odds are the airlines are going to follow it.
Not quite... I work for an international financing company that is required by federal law to comply with OFAC (Office of Foreign Assets Control) which prohibits us from doing business with any individual or organization on the federally administrered list. It's not a matter of us deciding to follow OFAC policy - it's required by law.

Likewise, I suspect that this "no-fly" list is not an "option" to be followed or ignored by commercial airlines at their discretion.

Update: It's also worth noting that unlike the "no-fly list," the OFAC list is available to anyone who wants to view it. ("Specially Designated Nationals (SDN) List")
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Last edited by Djinn : Feb 9, 2004 at 03:10 PM.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by McDusty
true they are much more likely to take an outbound or internal plane -and considering the shoddy american airport security (a person arrived at heathrow from america with bullets on his person) whats to stop them.

Anyway - the florida thing - for logen99999

the report that uncovered it all -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/pr...ght/palast.ram
transcript (if you don't have broadband) - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1174115.stm

updates -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1372065.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1440130.stm
So to you those articles say that George W. Bush blacklisted black people from voting in Florida?

Astonishing.

In a country of several hundred million people, voting irregularities will occur. That's damn near a statistical fact. Some will be intentional (which are bad), some will be mistakes (which are regrettable). Those reports sure sound like the intentional flavor, but I don't think you can link those to GWB in any way, shape, or form. For every story about lower income voters getting screwed, there are also stories about it happening on the other end, all over the country,

Further, your posts are nothing but thread crapping. This thread is clearly about airport security and blacklists against travel.

Your posts have no bearing whatsoever on the point of this thread. As far as I can tell, you used this thread as a springboard to post a bunch of anti-Bush rhetoric.

Might as well just start your own thread next time.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Anyway - the florida thing - for logen99999

the report that uncovered it all -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/p...ight/palast.ram
transcript (if you don't have broadband) - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1174115.stm

updates -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1372065.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1440130.stm
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i honestly dont know what happened in florida, the links u gave me are a POSSIBLE explenation and i would not put 100% of my trust in theme, theye may just be kicked up dust from democrats who where angre with the election results, I DONT KNOW. what i do know is that blacklisting minorities in florida (if this is the case) benifited george bush by granting him the presidency, blacklisting people that pose a indirrect threat to the possible well being of the country benifits the country. therefore its ok. interesting read but it does not fit into the context of a valid argument.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:20 PM   #18
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ok -

first of all, i said "the Florida thing - for logen99999" - since he asked about it. It would have been rude not to reply. you didn't have to read them, and ....

Second - i don't think you did. Your response was far to quick - the ram file is 13.37 mins long and ...

Third - i said "bush" - i was referring to Jeb Bush - who promised to "deliver florida" to his brother.

You can apologise now
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by logen99999
seems like the Gov is trying to protect its interests, fine by me, the gov would not blacklist theme without a good reason and i guess it had one so.....
That is exactly the attitude that is allowing your freedoms (which ironically as a nation you are so fervent about) to be stripped away
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:24 PM   #20
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nevermind

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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:26 PM   #21
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Nevermind

(its ok bro - these things happen)

Last edited by McDusty : Feb 9, 2004 at 03:34 PM.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shikatanai
That is exactly the attitude that is allowing your freedoms (which ironically as a nation you are so fervent about) to be stripped away
i understnd that, but u have to draw the line somewhere. im all for freedoms and i am against the patriot acts, but if the gov has a hunch about 2 women being possible threats to security, thene by all means take the measures that r needed to lower the possibility of thoses threats.

if there is a arguemnt or fact that shows that thoses two women are 100% not threats to the security and lives of the US people thene i will go against my current argument.

EDIT: oops sry mcdusty my bad.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:31 PM   #23
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Default Re: A more serious Free Speech issue...

Quote:
Originally posted by Djinn
IMO, this is a FAR more serious "free speech" issue than Al Franken tackling a heckler. I've cut and pasted the selected paragraphs below, but you can read the whole thing here. It's the last paragraph (quoted below) that concerns me.


For more sources and info, do a Google or Google News search for "Rebecca Gordon" "Janet Adams"

and yet we still have those questioning the connection to acts such as this and those from the Nazi era.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 03:35 PM   #24
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Area specifically reserved

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Old Feb 9, 2004, 04:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by zona nukka
WTF!!?!?!!!


We have truly turned into a police state. This has gone way too far.
Its still going...
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 04:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aphex242
Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 04:32 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Djinn


Update: It's also worth noting that unlike the "no-fly list," the OFAC list is available to anyone who wants to view it. ("Specially Designated Nationals (SDN) List")
If you are an airline employee you have access to it. I for one have seen it.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 04:36 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by McDusty
ok -

first of all, i said "the Florida thing - for logen99999" - since he asked about it. It would have been rude not to reply. you didn't have to read them, and ....

Second - i don't think you did. Your response was far to quick - the ram file is 13.37 mins long and ...

Third - i said "bush" - i was referring to Jeb Bush - who promised to "deliver florida" to his brother.

You can apologise now
That's funny, I remember him saying he was going to stay out of the election.
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Old Feb 9, 2004, 04:36 PM   #29
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This kid knows what free speech is all about

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Old Feb 9, 2004, 04:38 PM   #30
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Amazing how some people will defend their government, even if it sacrifices little babies to Satan. Sad really.
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