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Old Aug 6, 2010, 08:16 PM   #1
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caveman-jim
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AMD AMD FUSION Processors Deliver Exceptional Performance Faster Than Some Discrete GPUs

AMD Director of Client Technology Unit, Godfrey Cheng, spoke Friday about AMD's new FUSION APU and it's upcoming graphics performance, and how it won't replace all discrete graphics cards - just some:

"AMD’s APUs are designed to deliver exceptional performance – and we believe this will be readily apparent when compared to integrated graphics products available from the competition. Some of our APUs, by sheer performance alone, are expected to be faster than some discrete GPUs on the market. As our GPU cores improve, you can expect our APU graphics performance to similarly improve," said Godfrey Cheng, the director of client technology unit at AMD.

In the first half of next year AMD plans to launch the code-named Llano accelerating processing unit (APU) with up to four Phenom II-class x86 cores and with up to ATI Radeon HD 5000-class 480 stream processors. Potentially, Llano offers higher computing performance than code-named named Redwood chip (which has up to 400 SPs), which means that AMD will have to refresh entry-level lineup otherwise Llano will likely stop sales Cedar-based products.

The Redwood chip that powers ATI Radeon HD 5500-series graphics solutions has up to 400 stream processors, meanwhile, Cedar chip that is featured on ATI Radeon HD 5400-series boards only has just 80 stream processors.
AMD's Fusion APUs have a substantial caveat in the form of relatively low memory bandwidth. Thanks to the fact that APUs combine CPUs and GPUs on a single piece of silicon, memory and bus bandwidth will not be required for communication between the two types of cores and some other overdraws will be reduced. Still, discrete graphics processing units will continue to exist for quite a while: there is a number of APU and GPU generations in development.

"One of the main reasons people want a discrete GPU is to improve gaming performance. Gamers have remained loyal to AMD and ATI for more than a decade – a decade that has seen some pretty incredible changes in the industry. This segment shows no signs of disappearing anytime soon and we intend to continue to provide enthusiasts with leading discrete graphics solutions. In fact, we have several generations of APUs and GPUs in development right now," stressed Mr. Cheng.


Read the full article @ XBit-Labs
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Old Aug 6, 2010, 09:08 PM   #2
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AWESOME! GREAT NEWS!

This should put AMD cpu business in the green in 2011 and this is only a start. 480 shaders!!! now at what speed ?
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Old Aug 6, 2010, 09:11 PM   #3
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Probably 500-750MHz would be my guess.
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Old Aug 7, 2010, 06:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman-jim View Post
Probably 500-750MHz would be my guess.
silicon chip needs to be heated evenly/symmetrically, because if it doesn't it expands unevenly and microfractures might appear. So, the shader clock in APU depends mostly on heat levels generated by graphic core related to heat generated by cpu. At least, IMO.
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Old Aug 7, 2010, 10:39 AM   #5
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Great job AMD (ATi)! I hope this results in many OEM design wins.
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Old Aug 7, 2010, 10:43 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaNdo View Post
silicon chip needs to be heated evenly/symmetrically, because if it doesn't it expands unevenly and microfractures might appear. So, the shader clock in APU depends mostly on heat levels generated by graphic core related to heat generated by cpu. At least, IMO.
What you say is true. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my postulated clock speeds?
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 12:22 AM   #7
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What a waste of time and resources. Fusion -> stupid idea. More money of HP, Dell no value for consumers.

"One of the main reasons people want a discrete GPU is to improve gaming performance. Gamers have remained loyal to AMD and ATI for more than a decade – a decade that has seen some pretty incredible changes in the industry. This segment shows no signs of disappearing anytime soon and we intend to continue to provide enthusiasts with leading discrete graphics solutions. In fact, we have several generations of APUs and GPUs in development right now," stressed Mr. Cheng.

People don't want a discrete GPU, but Dell, HP, and other OEMs want that so they can sell more bull**** to people.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 01:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red_star View Post
What a waste of time and resources. Fusion -> stupid idea. More money of HP, Dell no value for consumers.

"One of the main reasons people want a discrete GPU is to improve gaming performance. Gamers have remained loyal to AMD and ATI for more than a decade – a decade that has seen some pretty incredible changes in the industry. This segment shows no signs of disappearing anytime soon and we intend to continue to provide enthusiasts with leading discrete graphics solutions. In fact, we have several generations of APUs and GPUs in development right now," stressed Mr. Cheng.

People don't want a discrete GPU, but Dell, HP, and other OEMs want that so they can sell more bull**** to people.
You really don't understand FUSION.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 06:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red_star View Post
People don't want a discrete GPU, but Dell, HP, and other OEMs want that so they can sell more bull**** to people.
Way to miss the point... Fusion is all about REMOVING the discrete GPU and placing it on the same die as the CPU for those people that don't need it.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 07:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman-jim View Post
What you say is true. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my postulated clock speeds?
i really don't have slightest idea about clock.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 07:43 AM   #11
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Good, just in-time for my next laptop. Looks real promising.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 09:47 AM   #12
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I'm wondering if this is could be used in conjunction with a GPU without the use of Crossfire considering it's on a different bus.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 10:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobvodka View Post
Way to miss the point... Fusion is all about REMOVING the discrete GPU and placing it on the same die as the CPU for those people that don't need it.
It's about giving more performance to people who currently have minimal - 480 shaders is a lot, could bring $75 discrete card and $75 cpu performance to netbooks, tablets, ultra-thins etc. Wherever there is currently a GMA X4500 or HD 4290 there could be a HD 5570. (for example).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound_Card View Post
I'm wondering if this is could be used in conjunction with a GPU without the use of Crossfire considering it's on a different bus.
I'm sure there will be some kind of multi-GPU technology. I think it will switchable rather than scalable, though. So instead of AFR we'll see an SFR, the discrete GPU being used for intensive 3D, compute, the on-die GPU being used for desktop, day-to-day compute. The win for AMD would be getting the discrete GPU to seamlessly and dynamically power on and off, for low power and high performance.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 01:10 PM   #14
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It's crazy to think that the lowest APU will have better than R600 performance. It would be a shame a bit(not much) if they could not conjure a way to let the APU offload something from a game. Bit of a waste there. If it could be done, this could potentially take over the enthusiast sector.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 02:03 PM   #15
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If a game used STREAM technology, DirectCompute or OpenCL it is possible that the APU could be used to process that while the discrete card ran the graphics.


From my article on Catalyst Driver Re-Architecture
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Alternate Frame Rendering could be adjusted such that a 4:1 ratio could be used between an Enthusiast and Premium product, and need not be the only mode available - split frame rendering could be implemented with one GPU processing all the verticies, and the second for all pixels. Non-3D workload (i.e. DirectCompute, OpenCL) workloads could be scaled appropriately, and dynamically.

Rage3D - Will the MultiGPU driver allow for split frame rendering, where a more powerful primary GPU renders most of the scene and the secondary GPU does less? Or, for Tessellation/DirectCompute offload?

Terry Makedon - Potential is available, no support yet - it will be on the roadmap; dynamic load balancing to balance 1.8 for rendering, 0.2 for physics (for example).

Rage3D - Under the new MultiGPU driver component will OpenCL on GPU's be supported in a CrossfireX configuration, or will it need to be disabled to leverage all GPU's? Will the new MultiGPU driver component make any difference for existing GPGPU applications like [email protected]?

Terry Makedon - Scaling support doesn't yet exist but we hope to include in future.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 02:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman-jim View Post
It's about giving more performance to people who currently have minimal - 480 shaders is a lot....
a lot? it's boost of epic proportions. Currently there is only one solution for barely acceptable 3D on netbooks, and it is nVidia ION with 16 shaders, and while you can't compare nV shader to ATI's on 1:1 ratio, difference between 480 and 16 is pretty much obvious.

However, integrated GPU's always had the same weak point - RAM. If the memory is going to be shared with system, we cannot expect anything spectacular with DDR3 around.
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Old Aug 8, 2010, 02:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman-jim View Post
If a game used STREAM technology, DirectCompute or OpenCL it is possible that the APU could be used to process that while the discrete card ran the graphics.


From my article on Catalyst Driver Re-Architecture
that's a whole lot of IFs and "potential" however given ATI's history of delivering on supposed "future" enhancements (broken promises etc, MAXX/2K, TruForm, GPU Physics, user created profiles and so on ..) I have very little faith that much of anything will actually see the light of day.. at most I could see a switchable graphics mode that would appeal greatly to OEMs, whom have the greatest pull with ATI, outside of that it's mostly PR and marketing gimmick-try
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Old Aug 9, 2010, 06:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaNdo View Post
a lot? it's boost of epic proportions. Currently there is only one solution for barely acceptable 3D on netbooks, and it is nVidia ION with 16 shaders, and while you can't compare nV shader to ATI's on 1:1 ratio, difference between 480 and 16 is pretty much obvious.

However, integrated GPU's always had the same weak point - RAM. If the memory is going to be shared with system, we cannot expect anything spectacular with DDR3 around.
A good number of systems with integrated Radeon 3200 and 4200 had dedicated graphics memory included without having to use the shared memory for EVERYTHING.
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Old Aug 9, 2010, 07:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @md_Guy View Post
that's a whole lot of IFs and "potential" however given ATI's history of delivering on supposed "future" enhancements (broken promises etc, MAXX/2K, TruForm, GPU Physics, user created profiles and so on ..) I have very little faith that much of anything will actually see the light of day.. at most I could see a switchable graphics mode that would appeal greatly to OEMs, whom have the greatest pull with ATI, outside of that it's mostly PR and marketing gimmick-try
It was one 'IF' and I can give you examples of applications that would benefit right now - Cyberlink MediaShow & MediaEspresso, PowerDVD, ArcSoft SimHD, Adobe Flash Player - all these accelerate right now on the GPU and will do so on the FUSION APU.

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A good number of systems with integrated Radeon 3200 and 4200 had dedicated graphics memory included without having to use the shared memory for EVERYTHING.
Yes, they used upto 128MB DDR3-1333 RAM on the motherboard via SidePort, which is certainly faster.
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Old Aug 9, 2010, 09:58 AM   #20
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I own one of those 4290 boards with 128MB of Sideport Memory and have recently built 2 systems for clients with 4200's with Sideport Memory. My only wish would be that they would include a bit more, like around 512MB. It would be better for Blu-Ray playback and you wouldn't need to use Main Memory at all.

I think the Fusion chip will be awesome.
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Old Aug 9, 2010, 11:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman-jim View Post
Yes, they used upto 128MB DDR3-1333 RAM on the motherboard via SidePort, which is certainly faster.
But 128 mb of ram limits performance severely even with chip like 42xx.

however APU is build to satisfy requirements for inexpensive, small PC size and power draw, wich is contradictory to request for more dedicated v-ram.

Last edited by DaNdo : Aug 9, 2010 at 11:44 AM.
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Old Aug 9, 2010, 11:47 AM   #22
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I fully expect the first APU to use system RAM, like IGP's currently do. If you install DDR3-1600 you get 1600mhz graphics RAM.
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Old Aug 10, 2010, 09:32 AM   #23
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might come with on die ram like 128 or 256 to start and lower clocks around 300mhz to save power it drops below 100mhz even with this setup it will be more than 10x more muscle than the current on board graphics can deliver.
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Old Aug 10, 2010, 09:49 AM   #24
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Quote:
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might come with on die ram like 128 or 256 to start
256MB ram on the CPU?
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Old Aug 10, 2010, 10:21 AM   #25
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One of the reasons I'm looking forward to Fusion is, having recently brought a 37" 1080p TV, it looks like it could be the perfect CPU for a HTPC box... well, assuming someone delivers a mobo small enough anyway...
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Old Aug 11, 2010, 07:18 PM   #26
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I really think you'll see a lot of really interesting form factors for FUSION, especially the 32nm one...
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Old Aug 13, 2010, 07:36 PM   #27
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I am still waiting for AMD to start pushing the HTX slot, which never went anywhere, but would really give AMD a big advantage. A direct HyperTransport slot for a GPU, or other controller types would be nice, or even co-processors on a card would be something that Intel wouldn't be able to fight against easily.
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Old Aug 15, 2010, 03:28 AM   #28
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Sounds perfect for a small form factor HTPC - maybe even USFF PC's - with added gaming capability whilst hopefully remaining *cool'n'quiet* , this has been a long time coming.

I havent posted on here for a long time but this was exciting enough to make me do it

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