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Smartphones, Tablets and Handheld Computing From Android, Symbian to Apple devices, this is the place for discussion and debate, whether it's smartphones, tablets or even gaming handhelds.

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Old Jul 19, 2013, 06:08 PM   #1
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Razeus
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Default When will MS realize RT won't work?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57594612-75/funky-friday-more-than-$32-billion-in-microsoft-stock-value-wiped-out/

The weekend can't start soon enough for Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, who watched as investors drove down the company's stock by more than 11 percent Friday after a disappointing earnings report raised questions about demand for the latest Windows operating system as well as the Surface tablet.
The stock finished at $31.40, off $4.04 for the day. The percentage decline -- which wiped out more than $32 billion in stockholder value -- was the biggest slide in Microsoft's stock since the year 2000. More than 245 million shares traded hands compared with the 90-day average trading volume of 50 million.


How is this guy still in charge?
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 06:35 PM   #2
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Like 6 mil devices sitting in stock... sad, i really like my Surface but i do think they messed up on the launch. Should have been a $500 MAX, with KB, and then have the Pro as a $7/899 device. Such nice devices foiled by their marketing and launch.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 07:05 PM   #3
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But why get the RT, when you get a full Win8 tablet?
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 07:08 PM   #4
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And no one is rushing out to get the Pro either.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 07:12 PM   #5
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So what is MS doing wrong on tablets, outside of the lack of high profile apps? Seems like Apple and Google have it locked.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 09:38 PM   #6
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Protip.

Buy MS stock
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 09:48 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
But why get the RT, when you get a full Win8 tablet?
It was a decision made a while back for ARM. It was a stupid decision, but there was a reason for it, then.

With the products Intel is bringing to the market, there is no point to continue keeping RT products coming to the market. Windows 8 systems could be easily sold in a non-Pro SKU to address demand for a lower cost product.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 10:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57594612-75/funky-friday-more-than-$32-billion-in-microsoft-stock-value-wiped-out/

The weekend can't start soon enough for Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, who watched as investors drove down the company's stock by more than 11 percent Friday after a disappointing earnings report raised questions about demand for the latest Windows operating system as well as the Surface tablet.
The stock finished at $31.40, off $4.04 for the day. The percentage decline -- which wiped out more than $32 billion in stockholder value -- was the biggest slide in Microsoft's stock since the year 2000. More than 245 million shares traded hands compared with the 90-day average trading volume of 50 million.


How is this guy still in charge?
Many believe there's no one in the company that could do better. I've heard numerous times that it's widely believed on the board that, currently, if a change of direction was to happen, it would be back to Gates.


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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
So what is MS doing wrong on tablets, outside of the lack of high profile apps? Seems like Apple and Google have it locked.
They aren't doing anything wrong, per say. They are fighting to get into a market that's well established in North America and they are fighting a Vista-esque stigma with Win8. Apple and Google don't face anywhere near the hurdles that Microsoft does with OS releases.


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Protip.

Buy MS stock
Ding. Year over year, you're going to see huge gains in SaaS. (Azure, Office 365, Hyper-V).


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It was a decision made a while back for ARM. It was a stupid decision, but there was a reason for it, then.

With the products Intel is bringing to the market, there is no point to continue keeping RT products coming to the market. Windows 8 systems could be easily sold in a non-Pro SKU to address demand for a lower cost product.
IMO, the stupid decision was not releasing the WinRT tablets at $349 out of the gate and the Pro was over-priced by about $100 as well. The next revision of the Surface RT will probably be the last once the Atom successor (forgot it's name currently) and the Haswell chips are more established.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 10:26 PM   #9
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But why get the RT, when you get a full Win8 tablet?
Because Pro, which weren't out yet, were going to be a few hundred bucks more w/o the keyboard. I didnt/dont need a full win8 tablet, yet. They dont have the balls to do any major work that i would do on a win8 Pro tablet so the RT seemed like a great choice. Granted i paid too much for it, but I wanted something more than a typical tablet and for me the RT fits that bill. I dont regret it but i do accept that i paid too much for it.

When AMD or better intel chips start going into win8 pro tablets then i may consider upgrading, but for me now its kind of a waste and im totally happy with the RT.

/me keeps 2yr warranty papers close by...

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Old Jul 19, 2013, 11:41 PM   #10
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So what is MS doing wrong on tablets, outside of the lack of high profile apps? Seems like Apple and Google have it locked.
Apps are less important on a Pro tablet. Like adelphia said RT is now meaningless and MS's advantage with Pro isn't being leveraged at the typical tablet price point.

If they could launch a Pro tablet at $350-500 somehow, they might stand a better chance at making a dent in the market.
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 12:14 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Zero View Post
Apps are less important on a Pro tablet. Like adelphia said RT is now meaningless and MS's advantage with Pro isn't being leveraged at the typical tablet price point.

If they could launch a Pro tablet at $350-500 somehow, they might stand a better chance at making a dent in the market.
I can't see the 128gb pro being less than a ipad 64gb, but if they could get them the same price I would buy one

drop the 64gb pro as it is useless with only 29gb available for user content

but with some of the new amd apu's coming out I will wait for the second generation of surface pro
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 01:41 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by AdelphiaX View Post
IMO, the stupid decision was not releasing the WinRT tablets at $349 out of the gate and the Pro was over-priced by about $100 as well. The next revision of the Surface RT will probably be the last once the Atom successor (forgot it's name currently) and the Haswell chips are more established.
Not everyone can get away with eating the cost of a system. The Surface RT is a well made system and its quite solid overall. $349 is pretty cheap for the unit when it first came out.

Microsoft is not Apple, they can't get away with selling redundant hardware as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

With costs as they are now, sure, they can drop the price and clear inventory and take a charge, but it would have been difficult to justify at the start, especially when the market had other products in that price band that did half what the Surface can do.

Microsoft need not have gone down the Arm path, but someone made a good business case to the powers that be. C'est la vie.
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 03:42 AM   #13
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RT's problem is that its Windows8 for ARM, but nothing from windows 8 is compatible with it (aside from the apps) due to the x86 and ARM incompatibility. I think things would be much better if they somehow got the x86 code to work on ARM so then you have Windows8 for ARM instead

The Surface's problems as a whole is that they were way too expensive.

If we throw Windows Phone into the picture, we can see how RT is even more of a mess.

Android and iOS are tablet/phone OS's. They're more or less the same thing on a tablet or a phone.

With RT you have a Desktop OS, stripped down to work with ARM, but doesn't work with desktop software(x86), and needs its own apps.
If they scaled UP Windows Phone, they woud have the established (albeit small) userbase and app library, people probably wouldn't associate it with Win8 x86, and they would have been closer to full convergence with one OS tackling 2 markets (the ARM market) while maintaining the third one (x86). right now they have 3 OS's tackling 3 markets. (Arm phone, ARM tablet, and x86 desktop/tablet)
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 04:33 AM   #14
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I would say windows is the problem that RT won't work is more or less something that Microsoft can't make Operating Systems that have competition.

As soon as they have a monopoly then they do well (yes, folks it is a miracle). MS has to much money and like what Semiaccurate said before it is doomed to fail.
The hardware is already on the decline since MS shafted hardware giants like HP on RT.

With just MS pushing this and with a little help from Dell what is going to happen, nothing.
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 09:25 AM   #15
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I think Steve Ballmer really should go. I mean seriously...I don't understand why Microsoft still keeps this stupid CEO? He had no clue how to make a operating system right between mobile, tablet, and desktop.
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 04:40 PM   #16
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Confused marketing , price point little to high & some gaps in software where the issues. Stumble of a start, but not the end.
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 06:55 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Treeckcold57 View Post
I think Steve Ballmer really should go. I mean seriously...I don't understand why Microsoft still keeps this stupid CEO? He had no clue how to make a operating system right between mobile, tablet, and desktop.
They are still very profitable.

And Windows 8 is still the only OS out there that addresses all the platforms you listed properly. Name one other OS that encompases all the ecosystems.

Over the next year or so, there will be far more and far better convergence and integration.
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 07:42 PM   #18
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They are still very profitable.

And Windows 8 is still the only OS out there that addresses all the platforms you listed properly. Name one other OS that encompases all the ecosystems.

Over the next year or so, there will be far more and far better convergence and integration.
If people wanted convergence and integration with Windows, they'd be buying Windows.

But they're not and they've had ample time to do so.

That era is now over. The PC is no longer the central digital hub in many households anymore. People are easily learning you can live without Windows (and Office).
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 07:53 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
If people wanted convergence and integration with Windows, they'd be buying Windows.

But they're not and they've had ample time to do so.

That era is now over. The PC is no longer the central digital hub in many households anymore. People are easily learning you can live without Windows (and Office).
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Old Jul 21, 2013, 11:29 AM   #20
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...there's not one Windows machine in my household. I've been doing great without. Windows is no longer needed.
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Old Jul 21, 2013, 12:14 PM   #21
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...there's not one Windows machine in my household. I've been doing great without. Windows is no longer needed.
You still have a PC, whether it's a Windows machine or not. And I'd be willing to bet you Bootcamp or VMWare Fusion on it. If Windows was really no longer needed then neither of those things would exist.
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Old Jul 21, 2013, 10:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Treeckcold57 View Post
I think Steve Ballmer really should go. I mean seriously...I don't understand why Microsoft still keeps this stupid CEO? He had no clue how to make a operating system right between mobile, tablet, and desktop.
Ballmer had nothing to do with the creation of those. All three of those products just got merged into one division last week. Up till then, each Microsoft product was kind of a silo of its own business model.

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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
If people wanted convergence and integration with Windows, they'd be buying Windows.

But they're not and they've had ample time to do so.

That era is now over. The PC is no longer the central digital hub in many households anymore. People are easily learning you can live without Windows (and Office).
In your small world, perhaps, for the rest of the planet, no. The best illustration of this, is that the "failure" of Windows 8 gets put into a more proper prospective when you look at the actual numbers. More people are on Windows 8 systems then all OSX revisions combined. Not taking into account XP, Vista, 7 or the Enterprise Server software that the majority of Fortune 500 companies and most small businesses utilize.

The PC has to be the central digital hubs for these people (roughly 94% of the planet) as people's beloved Android/Apple devices are content consumption devices and can't really be managed otherwise (especially Apple).

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Originally Posted by Elysian View Post
You still have a PC, whether it's a Windows machine or not. And I'd be willing to bet you Bootcamp or VMWare Fusion on it. If Windows was really no longer needed then neither of those things would exist.
Ding.


Sales numbers shouldn't be thought to be too high out of the gate. Not everyone can go out and buy the latest thing, especially when it looks different then what they're used to. Why drop the iPad or Nexus device when it's working properly? There's nothing Microsoft can really do until the Intel chips really start pushing out the door. It will be a much different landscape a year from now.
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Old Jul 21, 2013, 10:49 PM   #23
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Ballmer had nothing to do with the creation of those. All three of those products just got merged into one division last week. Up till then, each Microsoft product was kind of a silo of its own business model.



In your small world, perhaps, for the rest of the planet, no. The best illustration of this, is that the "failure" of Windows 8 gets put into a more proper prospective when you look at the actual numbers. More people are on Windows 8 systems then all OSX revisions combined. Not taking into account XP, Vista, 7 or the Enterprise Server software that the majority of Fortune 500 companies and most small businesses utilize.

The PC has to be the central digital hubs for these people (roughly 94% of the planet) as people's beloved Android/Apple devices are content consumption devices and can't really be managed otherwise (especially Apple).



Ding.


Sales numbers shouldn't be thought to be too high out of the gate. Not everyone can go out and buy the latest thing, especially when it looks different then what they're used to. Why drop the iPad or Nexus device when it's working properly? There's nothing Microsoft can really do until the Intel chips really start pushing out the door. It will be a much different landscape a year from now.
I actually pointed this out to Raz in a thread in the OS subforum about Windows 8 being a failure I think I included Vista at the time though, Windows 8 and Vista, the 2 "failure" OS's, made up more users than OS/X in its entirety when I posted that.
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Old Jul 22, 2013, 09:21 AM   #24
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You still have a PC, whether it's a Windows machine or not. And I'd be willing to bet you Bootcamp or VMWare Fusion on it. If Windows was really no longer needed then neither of those things would exist.
Nope. No boot camp, no VM.

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Originally Posted by Elysian View Post
I actually pointed this out to Raz in a thread in the OS subforum about Windows 8 being a failure I think I included Vista at the time though, Windows 8 and Vista, the 2 "failure" OS's, made up more users than OS/X in its entirety when I posted that.
The difference is, in OS X world, we actually upgrade out OS's and don't "skip every other one", like Windows folks do. So yes, Vista and 8 were failures, relatively speaking, for the Windows world.

But I sense MS realizes their mistakes. Hence the return of the Start button and boot straight to desktop in 8.1.

Last edited by Razeus : Jul 22, 2013 at 09:24 AM.
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Old Jul 22, 2013, 10:59 AM   #25
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Nope. No boot camp, no VM.



The difference is, in OS X world, we actually upgrade out OS's and don't "skip every other one", like Windows folks do. So yes, Vista and 8 were failures, relatively speaking, for the Windows world.

But I sense MS realizes their mistakes. Hence the return of the Start button and boot straight to desktop in 8.1.
How is the upgrade cycle an indication of failure? Apple users have to upgrade their OS or actually, their hardware if they still want relevant security/feature patches. The 10.8 software couldn't be run on devices they sold as little as 2.5 years ago.


Microsoft's position in the phone/tablet computing sector is mostly dependent on Intel. Once people start getting used to the Windows 8 look, they'll start correlating with the tablet. Especially when they start hitting home the idea of buying software once and it'll work on your home PC and your tablet device (and soon phone). All the menus being the same, no repurchase, etc.
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Old Jul 22, 2013, 12:14 PM   #26
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I actually pointed this out to Raz in a thread in the OS subforum about Windows 8 being a failure I think I included Vista at the time though, Windows 8 and Vista, the 2 "failure" OS's, made up more users than OS/X in its entirety when I posted that.
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Nope. No boot camp, no VM.

Also.... then what the heck is this turning into? http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34002636

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Old Jul 22, 2013, 03:04 PM   #27
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Also.... then what the heck is this turning into? http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34002636

Non-issue. I scrapped that idea and bought another iMac. I barely do any gaming as it is, and when I do, the OS X has what I want to play.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 03:23 AM   #28
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That era is now over.
Not if you look at web traffic:

http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-US-monthly-201207-201306

Marker share for mobile OSes seems to be in single digits.
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Old Jul 23, 2013, 03:58 AM   #29
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They are still very profitable.

And Windows 8 is still the only OS out there that addresses all the platforms you listed properly. Name one other OS that encompases all the ecosystems.

Over the next year or so, there will be far more and far better convergence and integration.
Marketing speak from somewhere where people believe Windows 8 is the best operating system.

So how can convergence save WindowsRT ?

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Old Jul 23, 2013, 08:30 AM   #30
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Marketing speak from somewhere where people believe Windows 8 is the best operating system.

So how can convergence save WindowsRT ?
It won't. Windows 8 is where the convergence occurs, and it will be on Intel based tablets, not ARM.
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