thief 3 - deadly shadow

[spyre]

Well according to the thief mythos Watchers / keepers can make themselves invisible to most people and Garrat was a trainee watcher so thats why he can hide in the shadows with ease and it helped him become a thief. So its not really an AI limitation in that regard

[Nupraptor]

For those interested: One of the guys over at TTLG is currently writing a tweaker program, which will allow you to do everything from remove the spalsh screens at the start of the game, to improving performance, to doing things like increasing the AI's awareness past the Expert settings. He'll probably be done with it in just a few days.

[Rand0]

Nupraptor - Scots here from TTLG. o/

Now for my thoughts...

Being an immense fan of Thief, TDP and TMA are combined top on my list of favourite games ever - TDP for the most tense and atmospheric gameplay ever mixed
with an amazing story, TMA for the amazing level design and offering even more freedom in the fictional Universe.

What of Thief III then?

It has a lot to live up to; it has to carry on the storyline which ended abruptly with the end of TMA and it has to give us strong level design mixed with enough new gameplay tweaks and graphical improvements fitting of a game that is the sequel to another that was made four years ago.

Thief : Deadly Shadows, so far, is living up to my expectations.

I have some complaints, but they're really no more than niggles: I dislike the neon blue frob/arrow trails (but these can be removed using the patch - however that breaks the third person perspective but I feel that third person really DESTROYS any feeling of atmosphere or tension)) and sometimes the animations are rather unsteady and jiggly.
Oh, and a couple of the voice actors aren't great. Black Market Mae West anyone?

But if you can look past these rather minor issues, you'll find a really rich and beautiful Thief game. The conversations are as funny as ever, the characters are just as scheming
and Macheavellian - from the servants to the Lords, and there is a brilliant story here (although I'm only on day 4 I'm already hooked and very captivated).
As for graphics, the lighting system is just pure sex. I can forgive some of the less brilliant textures because of the excellent bump-mapping that's going on with the walls and architecture (the sunken citadel has some amazing bump-mapped columns and intricate stonework). I only ever go into third person to study the graphical surroundings because otherwise it shatters the atmosphere so I don't really care that the patcher breaks the third person view (not exactly breaks but fiddles it).
Other new things like the body awareness, a more involved version lock picking, wall climbing, selling wares and buying gear, the choice of roaming the city and faction missions all elevate the game above being "just another Thief".

For those tech-heads who require specs, etc, my rig is:
Athlon XP 2400+ (oced to 2.2Ghz)
512 M PC2700 RAM
Soundblaster Live! (being upgraded to Audigy 2 next week)
Sapphire 9600XT (128M version)

I ran a fraps test at 1024x768 with Max shadows / detail, bloom enabled and no AA, I was getting around 20-30 fps average, occasionally dropping into the teens, so that was unacceptable so I've kept the same settings and dropped the rez to 800x600 and I'm getting a far more palatable high 40fps average, occasionally dropping to the low 30s. That suits me well enough.

Very, very mild spoilers follow -

The story of Deadly Shadows is unravelling very slowly, by day 4 I know absolutely jack outside of an "impending Dark Age" and the referenced "brethren and betrayer" (who you were led to believe was Garret in T2 but no so now) who will accompany the downfall of the world, but there are tantalising threads - a quarantine at the docks, the undead marching again, the keeper's own prophecies are turning against them (and even TRANSFORMING
as they write them which you see in the very first cutscene), and nursery rhymes about an old grey lady are somehow linked to a series of very grisly murders.

All very intruiging.

[treefingers1]

Originally posted by Rand0

Soundblaster Live! (being upgraded to Audigy 2 next week)

Prepare to be blown away. This game has the best sound ever, and that is not an exaggeration. It is the first time EAX has been used to such an extent that it is essential to the atmosphere. I am only on the first level, but I was blown away when I heard the echoes of the gaurds while I was in the great hall in lord julians place. The echoes made the room feel cavernous. Before this game came out, it would have been pretty hard to justify the new purchase. Now, however, I can gaurantee that you will not regret your upgrade.

[Rand0]

My purchase only set me back £30 for a free-delivered refurb!

[Baalthazar]

Originally posted by nutcrackr
That's really quite interesting actually, because as I was playing ThiefS I kept thinking gee Splinter Cell does this much better in terms of tension and stealth. I'll admit that I've only played the demo but I'd much rather get Splinter Cell than this. Although it isn't a bad game certainly I just can't really get into it. I see Thief's model as poor stiff jittery things far worse than Splinter Cell's. I would also take Splinter Cell's graphics anyday of the week over Thief's. I guess it just didn't float my boat.

The animation in Splinter Cell is piss poor and doesn't even string together well (models frequently revert to a default pose before executing an animation). The AI is very obviously governed by waypoints (and my gripe here is that the waypoints ARE obvious - most games use waypoints for AI). Not to mention I once went backwards through a level in Pandora Tomorrow and discovered that all the AI's had been disabled (because I was supposed to complete the mission, I guess) - Very polished for a game that supposedly has high production values. Then you have Sam Fisher moving gracefully during FMV's but in a very clunky fashion during gameplay - the only decent animation in that game is Sam's creeping one. And of course you have a bright 3rd person model that apparently no one can see which really kills the immersion. Plus the models in Splinter Cell are all fairly low-poly, you just can't get close enough to them to appreciate it because you're forced into 3rd person. And all the shadows in Splinter Cell are done with shadow maps which don't look nearly as good as the dynamic lights of Thief3.

Honestly, Splinter Cell feels so patched together and mediocre it seems more like something a decent mod team could cook up rather than a professional game. I honestly cannot fathom why it's given so much credit - it's a very slipshod piece of work.

If you honestly think Splinter Cell is better, well then I guess you must look at games differently than I do. I would only recommend that you play through Thief3 up to the Shalebridge Cradle and be sure to use first person to see if your opinion changes. And play on Hard at least - normal really is too easy.

edit: Oh, and just to stay on topic as opposed to spouting anti-SC diatribe, everyone should go and sign this:
http://www.petitiononline.com/t3editor/

Sorry if it's already been posted.

[GoldenNugget]

Originally posted by Baalthazar
I would only recommend that you play through Thief3 up to the Shalebridge Cradle and be sure to use first person to see if your opinion changes.

I just beat that level. God thats pretty damn freaky. Probably one of the most disturbing/scary levels I have played.

[miasto]

I didn't read the whole thread,but i suppose that someone can confirm that the "BLOOM" feature
doesn't work becouse it decreases multisampling to a value-1,which is not supported.
Maybe then a patch can fix it.


screens:

[Hashimoto]

I've been playing the game at first @ 1024*768 w/ 2x multisampling, and my fps would go down in to teens a lot of the times(usually when looking at those big blue fires, or when enemies have torches). I tried 12*10 w/o multisampling or bloom, and my fps was even worse. I kept playing @ the settings I mentioned first, until 3 days ago, when I changed it to 12*10 w/ bloom on. My fps is much better for some reason, and the game looks better, without "noticeable" jaggies(on a 19" monitor).

From my experience w/ the game(7-8 hours into it), I have to say that it's almost as good as thief 2. I just wish the levels weren't small w/ loading areas, and you could go on rooftops.

[ReDeeMeR_RR]

Yep, they got the gameplay right, feels less misterious though and less scary, but moody and involving, graphics still suck, better then DE:IW but you wont be staring at anything in close range(uber low resolution textures).

[Nupraptor]

The textures are mostly 512x512 with a few 1024x1024 tossed in for good measure.

And, I hate to admit it, but the Bloom effect is growing on me.

[GoldenNugget]

I really like this game a lot. I'm very impressed with this after what we got with DX2.

Nice with lots of twists and turns.

Now I'm at the Museum and I have 2 of the special loot items. Where's the last one? I think I need to get the dress hat thats mentioned in a note left in the curator's office.

Thanks for the replies.

[Nupraptor]

The first version of the Thief: Deadly Shadows tweaker program is available. It's not finished yet, but you can download the current version here: http://www.gazchap.com/products/windows/t3tweak

[skizatch]

Originally posted by treefingers1
Prepare to be blown away. This game has the best sound ever, and that is not an exaggeration. It is the first time EAX has been used to such an extent that it is essential to the atmosphere.

Thief 1 was actually the first one Followed then by System Shock 2 (another incredible use of EAX which was built using the same engine) and, of course, Thief 2.

I remember first playing Thief 1 with an Aureal card and it had A3D and it was ok. Then I got a Live and turned on EAX and was blown away by its use of sound. It's a shame more games haven't utilized sound to the same extent.

[systems]

Originally posted by Nupraptor
10fps? Even I don't get that with my 9700 Pro. You have 4x Multisampling on, or something?

Yes I do. That's what I paid for a Radeon 9800 to do. To get anything decent I've settled for turning that off and blooming. If you screw your eyes up and have a few drinks it looks the same.

I recommend that people get that Thief 3 patcher - you can turn off that annoying neon blue glow, and even completely disable the GUI so you have to look down at your hands to see what you're carrying. Perfect for the "Lytha style" players.

[Nupraptor]

I just find it kind of odd that some people will complain about their framerates without even trying to do something like turn down the FSAA. While I pretty much leave AF on for every game, I tend not to touch FSAA unless it's an older/less graphically demanding game.

[dawdler]

Well I caved in to the pressure and got the game...

The gameplay is right on the spot. Really sweet. It could really use a texture upgrade, but the normal mapping is very good done so it actually works with lower res...

The only problem:
HORRENDOUS performance (didnt show half as much in the demo). I mean, its near unplayable at times for gods sake (below 10 fps), and its not exactly rare... Worse than DXIW ever was.

I'm running on a 2400+ and 9700 Pro, 12x10 without FSAA and about 70-80% settings in all areas, vsync off, bloom on (I like it). 16xAF is on though, but that shouldnt pull it down badly, should it? Or does T3 suffer the same issue as Halo, with half the performance just a notch higher resolution (maybe I should try 10x7, but I got an LCD and like the 12x10 or 12x9 res)? Or are the Omega 4.4 drivers funky?

[DiaperJe|\|i3]

Tried the demo last nite. Not the smoothest game out there but its quite fun. For an old thief freek like myself its about fricken time I find using the 3rd person point of view alot smoother than 1st person. The shadows are jaw dropping and really add to the mood of the game (eating fps and all). 1024X768 with Bloom looks fine to me. Bloom seems to make the whole screen sorta hazy/fuzzy so you don't need AA as much. Two minor quips; 1) I want to see more cutscenes.2) No rope arrow? WTF were they thinking? I really don't understand that design choice @ all! Someone will make a mod to fix it shortly no doubt.

edit: Graphics are fricken fantastic, especially compared to the first 2.

[DiaperJe|\|i3]

Originally posted by systems
Yes I do. That's what I paid for a Radeon 9800 to do. To get anything decent I've settled for turning that off and blooming. If you screw your eyes up and have a few drinks it looks the same.

I recommend that people get that Thief 3 patcher - you can turn off that annoying neon blue glow, and even completely disable the GUI so you have to look down at your hands to see what you're carrying. Perfect for the "Lytha style" players.

Holy crap, I've never seen that before! Fanatics I'd never get through the lost city without killing the creapy crawlies. I've never had to kill many others but hearing the tick, tick, tick in the darkness creeps me frickin out!

[miasto]

I don't like this tweaker,it's useless....
But graphics look better and better
















I think they're quite nice,but i'm sad bloom doesn't work

[miasto]

dark atmosphere.....

[GoldenNugget]

Originally posted by miasto
I don't like this tweaker,it's useless....
But graphics look better and better

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9612/Thief14.jpg


http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1641/Thief20.jpg


http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4231/Thief21.jpg


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2448/Thief22.jpg


http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9660/Thief23.jpg


I think they're quite nice,but i'm sad bloom doesn't work

You are playing in 3RD PERSON !!!

[miasto]

YEAH,all the time.It's the best TPP effect from the times of Tomb Raider 1 and maybe Splinter Cell.
Gareth's moves and "behavior" are superb,and you see more

[Dem2k]

I don't think the gfx suck, i think some of the shadows on this game are the best looking i've seen to date. Its just you have to play around with the settings to get it to run the way you think it should. I would expect this kind of tinkering on an emulator or something not a full retail game.

[Shapeshifter]

any one get weird crashes?

well its not so much as crashing, but I will be playing for (random) some time and then like say I right click on something in the game, the game closes and it brings up my desktop right clicked

very annoying.

[UFO]

I tried the demo. The game is better than DeusEx:IW however there some things that they could have done better.

The game must be run in administrator mode.

Levels are quite small than what is possible to fit in current PCs. I guess the 64Mb limit of the Xbox plays a role here.

The graphics is OK, nothing ground breaking but do its job.

Movement is kind of jerky.

The demo couldn't make me interested. I'm not going to get this game and the Thief series wasn't that interesting for me anyway.

[Hordsak]

I know there is a thread for Thief 3 already, but I wanted to start a thread on peoples specific thoughts about the game.

I was never really interested in the old Thief games, but now I wish I had been. I downloaded the Thief 3 demo, and I went out and bought the game the same day. I've been doing alot of reading about peoples comments on it, and I just wanted to know what you rage guys think. I think the game has amazing gameplay, and wicked lighting effects. Some people say the graphics suck, and say things like "Why are the candles square, and why are the wheels an octagon" Well, the gameplay surely makes up for this. Another topic is performance. Sure, maybe it's not as silky smooth as Quake 3 ect.. but for what the game engine does, it's pretty darn good in my eyes. I'm running a 9800 pro, and with the settings I have it at, the game looked wicked, however I'm not getting 80+ fps that most people "have to have" I believe in a game such as this, 30+ fps is ok. 50+ is very good. Since it's not a 'twitch' like game, you don't need as high a fps. That's my personal opinion, what about yours?

[Great2bFree]

it sucks

[ReDeeMeR_RR]

Well it looks pretty ******, runs pretty ****** to, but the gameplay is good and almost on par with the old Thief games, good sound artistic and tehnical quality.

[skizatch]

Played the eeriest level last night, the atmosphere was so thick I could've cut it with a butter knife. I couldn't stop playing for hours. Yes guys, this is a game you play for the immersive, engrossing gameplay and not for the sullied-pants inducing graphics

I made this shot brighter so it would be easier to see. I can't say what happened next without spoilers: