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Old Oct 27, 2001, 10:56 PM   #1
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Omegadrive
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Default VERY IMPORTANT!!!, Please read this...

This in an article I found while I was looking around for 8500 opinions in the internet:

http://www.3000ad.com/soapbox/index.shtml

This is quite a shocking opinion, and coming from a developer is even more important than other "reviews".
After reading this and after ALL the problems that I have encountered with the 8500, I'm having second thoughts about this card and I'm REALLY considering changing it for a Ti500.
If anyone at ATI (Are you hearing ATI?) can convince me I'll be glad to hear it, otherwise I'll be exchanging my card tomorrow since is the last day to return it.

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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:04 PM   #2
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You are joking...right?
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:11 PM   #3
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Omega, I wouldnt worry too much. Firstly, Derek Smart is world reknown for ranting and raving over all sorts of things (perceived or imagined). Do a search on Usenet for Derek Smart and you'll find hundreds upon thousands of threads where Derek really reveals his true colours as to how much of an ass he is (where he badmouths and insults his own users for not being able to run his ultrabuggy software and daring to complain about it).

In fact, it's massive irony that he complains about buggy ATI software when his one game has caused so much damage/headaches for users that he has a large contingent of people that hate him with a passion online. Really, do a search, and you'll see. Believe what you wish about the 8500, but the last thing you should do is believe the opinions of this man before exploring his background and seeing firsthand the way he behaves.

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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:16 PM   #4
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Lightbulb Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!!, Please read this...

[quote]Originally posted by Omegadrive
this is quite a shocking opinion, and coming from a developer is even more important than other "reviews".
After reading this and after ALL the problems that I have encountered with the 8500, I'm having second thoughts about this card and I'm REALLY considering changing it for a Ti500.
If anyone at ATI (Are you hearing ATI?) can convince me I'll be glad to hear it, otherwise I'll be exchanging my card tomorrow since is the last day to return it.
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What enthusiasts really need is a competitive market to bring them the Quality they so crave. An exodus from the only real chalenger to a 3D monpoly by Nvidia will not bring you what you're looking for. Competition drives innovation and quality. What we would like is for ATI to address our complaints, not to put them under.
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:25 PM   #5
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Btw, here's a review of that, ahem...developer's game.


http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories...538148,00.html

Yep, I think we have lots to fear from that guy.
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:28 PM   #6
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Did it hit you that this card hasn't even been out for 2 weeks. The issues will get sorted out, and you'll be happy. I say keep it and wait. Things can only get better.
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:32 PM   #7
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As many problems as his games have and he rants about the 8500?
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:42 PM   #8
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Unhappy Sorry, but I didn't know the history of this guy...

But the problem here, if you read the whole article is the communication between the HARDWARE AND DRIVER developers at ATI, I don't care about the other BS the guy talks about the 8500, but I do care about this drivers problem in ATIs hand. I'm just pointing out that at least HE has communication with both developers at ATI, and even telling them (driver dev) the problems, they wouldn't fix them, or at least fix one and create another.
I have seen an improvement in ATI's drivers since I bought my Radeon, but the improvment is too small and to slow to barely notice it, unless you upgrade from a really old driver to the latest one.
Another point is the "cheats" ATI make (or at least Driver Dev.) to get "ahead" of the competitor (read: nVidia) and to make a "fake" reports of their advancements in driver development. I'm begining to belive that now ATI has become a marketing competitor instead of a company that cares about their customers. If they would care about us (like 3dfx did) they would at least have their own forum with developers and special "people" taking care of customer questions and problems.
Now ATI only has to options:
1- Start taking care of their customers and stop this marketing BS (just like Matrox is doing).
2- Keep thinking this way about their products and customers and fall before nVidia or another company.
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:48 PM   #9
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Were is 3dfx now? In that big computer case in the sky. Come on, ATI does a good job, and they do listen to people, if you notice they settle major problems, and work on the smaller problems later.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 12:05 AM   #10
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Default OK...

And again, I'm not talking about the vendetta this guy has with ATI, I'm talking about the reality of ATI's drivers:
1- D3D=Half baked!!! (they fixed Dx8 partially, but almost every Dx7 game or older is freaking choppy, even with my 8500!!!)
2- OpenGL= They don't have a full ICD, I use 3DSMax 3.1, but I can't properly use OpenGL and mainly use Heidi, becuse the views usually have some anoying bug or the program just crashes.
3- These drivers are coming from WAY BACK, from the Rage128, and even through all these years they havent fixed the FogTable!!! I still think they should SCRAP the current drivers and start developing new ones SPECIFICALLY for the Radeon technology.

This card (8500) has a LOT of hardware potential and even the old Radeon still haven't showed what it can really do, all because of the drivers.

Is too sad, ATI should hire gamers at their company for the QA dept. and NOT guys with ties and suit that carry briefcases.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 12:06 AM   #11
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I understand your concern about ATi and their priorities. I have concerns too and they are mainly with driver support.

That developer you think so highly of created one game that took seven years to develop and was one of the worst games of all time. I read his little article and although he does make some valid points (even a broken clock is right twice a day), it is obvious this guy is just tooting his own horn at the expense of another company.

If the 8500 isn't working right with your system, apps, or games then nobody can blame you for taking it back. However, don't let somebody else make up your mind for you (especially that guy).
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 12:33 AM   #12
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First off... He has no screen shots, no comments on image quality, no benchmarks, no nothing. He doesn't have the card.

Were those the exact words for the poll? I swear it never said "optimists who think ATI will turn around" and I swear he got the numbers wrong.

The only reason he hates ATI that I could tell is that it didn't run his precious home-made game very well.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 12:36 AM   #13
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Oh wait... My bad... He does have some screen shots. Two for each card. It looks like an 80's arcade game. Does anyone notice that the jpg's were saved in different qualities? Can anyone tell that the images were hacked by the guy with Microsoft Paint?
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 12:38 AM   #14
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"As for Creative, unless they enter the video card business with their own chipset, we're all screwed."

Shows you how much he knows about business. What's a stock? If he knew anything about business, he would know that ATI wouldn't go out of business anytime soon.

http://www.werewolves.org/~follies/a...eWarAbout.html - Look at him
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 01:01 AM   #15
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Wow. I thought this D. Smart guy was whacky but that was only the tip of the iceburg...sucks to be him.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 01:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Omegadrive
[b]I'm begining to belive that now ATI has become a marketing competitor instead of a company that cares about their customers. If they would care about us (like 3dfx did) they would at least have their own forum with developers and special "people" taking care of customer questions and problems. [b]
Damn rights they should! ATI should at least have TWO 'Bill Balls' in here, on a DAILY level, yapping about duct tape and answering to the true people that EMPLOY them... the consumers!

I love my Radeon64, but I wasn't happy with a few issues. One is getting screwed on my OEM clock speed... now, after stating the Radeon 8500 OEM would be the same speed as the retail version, they pull the same CRAP again.

I mean, didn't ATI listen to any it's customers over the last year??!!

This 8500 should have been released with a tested, tweaked, FULL-featured driver set.

Sure it's only been two weeks, but for us Radeon owners it's been ALOT longer.

What happened to the hot new driver squad?? ...twice the size, with ArtX's fresh blood to boot.

After the fact listed here in the forums have been presented, I'm also having trouble supporting ATI and I'm am not happy with my alternative either. A company that does not get invloved with it's supporters, on a personal level, leaves alot to be desired.

Rage3d provides one of the most informative forums on the net, but lacks it's most powerful asset... ATI.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 01:21 AM   #17
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Im remebering when this guys friend or friends claimed he was to damn stupid to get his game to work with any of the newer cards.
I dont know which video set this was but im thinking back in 99 era.

Wish i could remember what i said about him after he came here to build a pissin fire when it wasnt even ati`s chip set that he pissed himself over. He also was the jack [email protected]@ that got me all worked up how fooc in bad his game was going to be over Everquest ? and how voodoos 20 somthing bit polygens werent going to hold S*** it was damn flop and eqs designers didnt no jack s888 from adam.
I also seen the same game that was going to out sell 400,000 subscribers is still not finished yeah!!!
There used to be some guys playing everquest that talked about this jerk off till i was laughing before even when theyed come after you for cursein in their little world.


Any one remember someone flamin this azz way back in 99 i do not remember the login i had when when i started flamin him and no one cared or new the jerk.( i think he also couldnt get a understanding for the new driver sets that build on the old models from what i was being told from a few that where rippin a new one for him.

For some of you history buffs.
This might not be the best word for word qoute but here goes.
Quote:
Our {ed} Are{edit} drivers will give huge boost to all video cards chipsets you should see up to 5% to 8% increase in performance.
Took a long time for nv to get the lead out before they changed that to only our chipsets and by then it moved to up to a 15% increase.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 01:37 AM   #18
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Ohh wait there was the other time years ago when he was trying to punch at the online community to prove ati was nor wasnt ever going to make a profit back when they where strong in the pc market even more than a few other companys *cough**cough** dvd ,multimedia features. He proved ati was already bankrup and dieng like crap. The only reason i even started studying ati back then was over hearing ati was making a good profit for a while same time he started jerking off in a crowd like a noche.



Only voodoos would work with eq darkness problems on its weird voodoo settings that go above 8bit polys i was told even above 16 on which a voodo is made on. So i never got to ati til after the radeon so never experienced the death touch that ati so known for, then again i was use to 3dfxs bug fixes and not much of a performance boost.)

Ed:

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Old Oct 28, 2001, 01:39 AM   #19
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Default Are you running your 8500 tweaked?

Hi Omega,
Thought I read in antoher thread that someone reported fog was working for him on the 8500...try doing a search..I'm sure its here. Even posted a screenshot from a racing game that did not have fog before.

Also...a lot of the 8500 owners seem to report that it works great....did you do a fresh install of the drivers as well as remove any tweaks you might have had from before? Just some thoughts...


Regarding Smart and BC3000....with the reviews of his games being so dang buggy...has anyone even thought that maybe the majority of visual anomalies are a result of programming errors in the game itself? Who knows..maybe he's pissed coz he couldn't get a developer to help him do coding. His "**** don't stink" mentality makes it easy to lay blame elsewhere.

Good luck with your final decision.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 01:45 AM   #20
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"Btw, here's a review of that, ahem...developer's game.


http://gamespot.com/gamespot/storie...2538148,00.html

Yep, I think we have lots to fear from that guy."

Well it isn't entirely fair to post that link. The link is 5 years old and is a review of the original release of Battlecruiser 3000 A.D. Purportedly the game was released by the publisher in unfinished state without Smart's approval. Smart later got back the rights to the game and released it as freeware in heavily patched form. Supposedly the game still had stability problems but was vastly better. And his update Battlecruiser Millenium has gotten several decent previews from reputable sites such as Firing Squad. The game appeals to a niche mentality, like most indy games.

OTOH, Smart's modus operundi is to state his opinions in the most controversial and heavy handed manner possible. He has a very large ego, and this kind of behavior is his way of attracting attention. He also tends to lash out at anyone or anything that doesn't mesh with his games (including disgruntled purchasers of the games). That apparently includes ATI since he has had difficulties getting the games to work right with Radeon cards. Rather than try harder to fix it, it is easier for him to drop support for the cards and blame ATI. So his motives are a bit suspect - the more incompetent he can portray ATI, the less incompetent he comes off himself.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 02:21 AM   #21
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Default Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!!, Please read this...

Quote:
Originally posted by Omegadrive
This in an article I found while I was looking around for 8500 opinions in the internet:

http://www.3000ad.com/soapbox/index.shtml

This is quite a shocking opinion, and coming from a developer is even more important than other "reviews".
After reading this and after ALL the problems that I have encountered with the 8500, I'm having second thoughts about this card and I'm REALLY considering changing it for a Ti500.
If anyone at ATI (Are you hearing ATI?) can convince me I'll be glad to hear it, otherwise I'll be exchanging my card tomorrow since is the last day to return it.

P.S.
If a DRIVER DEVELOPER is reading this, please contact me through my E-Mail at my website:
www.omegacorner.cjb.net


This is the same guy that LIED about having a PHD. How pathetic is that? He just likes to get his name out anyway he can. Truth or not... and his game sucks.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 03:19 AM   #22
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Default Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!!, Please read this...

Quote:
Originally posted by Omegadrive
This in an article I found while I was looking around for 8500 opinions in the internet:

http://www.3000ad.com/soapbox/index.shtml

This is quite a shocking opinion, and coming from a developer is even more important than other "reviews".
After reading this and after ALL the problems that I have encountered with the 8500, I'm having second thoughts about this card and I'm REALLY considering changing it for a Ti500.
If anyone at ATI (Are you hearing ATI?) can convince me I'll be glad to hear it, otherwise I'll be exchanging my card tomorrow since is the last day to return it.

P.S.
If a DRIVER DEVELOPER is reading this, please contact me through my E-Mail at my website:
www.omegacorner.cjb.net
*Cough* That's the guy who made BattleCruiser 3000AD, a game renowned for being incredibly buggy, and those bugs were NOT driver-related. So, I found it a tad amusing when that bloke actually said that he didn't want to hear from "whining gamers". What a jerk . . .

I read his article a few days ago. Very little substance to it, at least IMO. His main problem is that he likes to hear his voice (or see his writing, you get my meaning).

He has had problems with ATI? Cry me a river, Smart! Particle Systems had problems with ATI's drivers, yet I-War2, quite a new game, runs just fine on my Radeon VIVO. <<Shrugs>> It depends on the attitude and the willingness to actually work on the game, I suppose.

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Old Oct 28, 2001, 06:58 AM   #23
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The only thing i can say is.... this man is a complete jerk!
Maybe he should first try to learn more programming and then blame anyone else (i mean ATI) for doying "bad" work with drivers... (but i don't think ATI is doing that bad work with their drivers, i'm very happy with my Radeon64 ViVo and the drivers.. can't wait for my R8500)

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Old Oct 28, 2001, 07:26 AM   #24
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If you guys are interested, you can talk to him in out Off topic forum.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...eadid=33586901
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 08:32 AM   #25
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Default Re: Sorry, but I didn't know the history of this guy...

Quote:
Originally posted by Omegadrive
But the problem here, if you read the whole article is the communication between the HARDWARE AND DRIVER developers at ATI, I don't care about the other BS the guy talks about the 8500, but I do care about this drivers problem in ATIs hand. I'm just pointing out that at least HE has communication with both developers at ATI, and even telling them (driver dev) the problems, they wouldn't fix them, or at least fix one and create another.
I have seen an improvement in ATI's drivers since I bought my Radeon, but the improvment is too small and to slow to barely notice it, unless you upgrade from a really old driver to the latest one.
Another point is the "cheats" ATI make (or at least Driver Dev.) to get "ahead" of the competitor (read: nVidia) and to make a "fake" reports of their advancements in driver development. I'm begining to belive that now ATI has become a marketing competitor instead of a company that cares about their customers. If they would care about us (like 3dfx did) they would at least have their own forum with developers and special "people" taking care of customer questions and problems.
Now ATI only has to options:
1- Start taking care of their customers and stop this marketing BS (just like Matrox is doing).
2- Keep thinking this way about their products and customers and fall before nVidia or another company.


You tell'em dog! This **** ATI is pulling with its drivers is showing there true colors and that there never gonna change!
And all them 3dfx guys now work at nVidia and thats why GeForce owners have good drivers!
I love my All In Wonder but hate ATI for the way they do there drivers! And if they cant get there **** straight!!!!!

The next AIW videocard I buy will be this one right here!
YA YOU SEE THIS ATI!!!!! nVidia has one out now sucka!!!!
Has it all........
This review is a half a year old I think so I assume the software/drivers is even better! And Who cares about the software when you got all the software I do

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1502&p=7

Just my $.02






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Old Oct 28, 2001, 09:49 AM   #26
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Wolfee,

Yes I noticed that review was very old when I posted the link but I honestly couldn't find a review of his new game (to be released this very month). The review did state the game had been in development for 7 years!!! Now throw another 5 years on top of that. If this game has any bugs at all (not related to video cards) he has absolutely no room to complain about ATi's drivers being buggy. Heck, by his standards, ATi should still get another 8 years to correct their bugs. I do have some respect for the guys opinion, as he is a developer, but (imho) he has rushed to an early judgment on the 8500 and may be using ATi as a scapegoat for his buggy game. We'll see...

This card was built to be DX 8.1 compliant. I ain't here to argue about when the card should have been released or the state of drivers at release. I do think ATi (irregardless of their past history) should be given a fair crack at enabling the features by mid November like they have stated. We do have them on record as saying mid November so hold them to that date.

6 months from now, this issue of ATi and their drivers will be cleared up completely. They will have either hushed the nay sayers or we'll all be howling for their heads. I wish I could fastforward time to see how things come out but as I've said several times, only time will tell.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 11:08 AM   #27
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I posted something here, and now its gone ;( It was along the lines of derek is correct to a degree, the jpgs scared me, but I have seen improvements in the drivers recently (carmaggedon 2: anti-aliasing). Also mentioned that Derek is generally an ass. He says he doesnt care what others think, and then replies with all manners of words. Hes just bitter, but still a person, and his views deserve consideration (you must admit, the Radeon Drivers are far from 'fallen from heaven').

The conclusion was, "Stick with it for a little longer, the drivers will become functional, at least". Besides, I bet you will be sorely dissapointed with the IQ of the geforce3 line of cards, in comparison to the radeon. Not to mention 2d image quality.
Now, can anyone explain what happened to my previously 500 word post?!
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 11:12 AM   #28
Crumpkin
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Oh, forgot to mention the the geforce line of cards arent the end all themselves. I wonder where they got that nice speed boost at the 'launch' of the r200? Have you seen some of the horror pictures at reactor critical. Once, I saw one where every object had polygons sticking out here and there.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 11:24 AM   #29
Lestat
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Quote:
Purportedly the game was released by the publisher in unfinished state without Smart's approval. Smart later got back the rights to the game and released it as freeware in heavily patched form.
According to D.S. According to Take2, they had to get it out, because it wasn't getting anywhere, and they had to add missions, because D.S. though people would like to fly around and do nothing but look at stuff. He also would not release the AI code to them, according to the reviewer. I think i would be wary of what D.S. claims - he continues to claim a Ph.d. while not really being able to offer proof, or show a scan of the document. I really can't take him seriously. Other developers have problems too, but they realise that you can't ignore a graphics card that has as large a penetration as the Radeon. People don't care, if the game doesn't work, the developers will get their share of the blame regardless, and sell less copies. Might as well try to work around it. But not D.S. Nope, he doesn't give a ****! Well, he obviously hasn't made a fortune either! (Unless you count sueing Take2, and ripping enough $ to go get a porsche! Maybe that was Smart, but not very admirable. That's the US for ya! )

L.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 12:19 PM   #30
billyhansome
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Derek is essentially a rude, caustic, dishonest, stupid author of the buggiest, most crappiest game ever known to man and it took him seven years to program. He claims he has a PhD in computer science when there is enormous amounts of evidence that he didn't get it from colleges and professors and etc. He left the story but now it appears he's still keeping up to it claiming he's a doctor! He calls any piece of hardware that can't run his game a piece of trash and if the game didn't work for you (which is about 30%), he calls you a fuc*** and tells you to f*** off numerous times. He actively participates in flame wars about his game and about him saying he's the greatest African-American game developer in the history of mankind, and he's cocky and thinks he's good-looking and so forth. In flame wars, all he does is swear. He protects his crappy game and himself just by unintelligent swearing. Go to any site and you'll see quotes...

Before he bashes ATi's drivers because of bugs, maybe he should take a look at his game.
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