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Old Oct 27, 2001, 10:54 PM   #1
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Omegadrive
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Exclamation VERY IMPORTANT!!!, Please read this...

This in an article I found while I was looking around for 8500 opinions in the internet:

http://www.3000ad.com/soapbox/index.shtml

This is quite a shocking opinion, and coming from a developer is even more important than other "reviews".
After reading this and after ALL the problems that I have encountered with the 8500, I'm having second thoughts about this card and I'm REALLY considering changing it for a Ti500.
If anyone at ATI (Are you hearing ATI?) can convince me I'll be glad to hear it, otherwise I'll be exchanging my card tomorrow since is the last day to return it.

P.S.
If a DRIVER DEVELOPER is reading this, please contact me through my E-Mail at my website:
www.omegacorner.cjb.net
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:15 PM   #2
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Angry BARELY a game developer, and a suck-ass one at that.

Omegadrive, Derek Smart is barely a game developer. He's got one title under his belt and from all reports if you can get it to run it ain't that hot. The man is talking just to hear the sound of his own voice and to hopefully pass off some of his own incompetence onto ATI and their less-than-stellar 8500 launch.

I'd prefer to listen to a guy by the name of Carmack who says that the 8500 is gonna do well with his new game, I tend to trust the man's opinion a little more.

Don't bother worrying about what Derek Smart says, just sit back and laugh at it.

BTW-I am NOT defending ATI here, I'm knocking a well-known *sshole. Big difference.
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:38 PM   #3
Omegadrive
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Default Ok, I didn't know that...

But the problem here, if you read the whole article is the communication between the HARDWARE AND DRIVER developers at ATI, I don't care about the other BS the guy talks about the 8500, but I do care about this drivers problem in ATIs hand. I'm just pointing out that at least HE has communication with both developers at ATI, and even telling them (driver dev) the problems, they wouldn't fix them, or at least fix one and create another.
I have seen an improvement in ATI's drivers since I bought my Radeon, but the improvment is too small and to slow to barely notice it, unless you upgrade from a really old driver to the latest one.
Another point is the "cheats" ATI make (or at least Driver Dev.) to get "ahead" of the competitor (read: nVidia) and to make a "fake" reports of their advancements in driver development. I'm begining to belive that now ATI has become a marketing competitor instead of a company that cares about their customers. If they would care about us (like 3dfx did) they would at least have their own forum with developers and special "people" taking care of customer questions and problems.
Now ATI only has to options:
1- Start taking care of their customers and stop this marketing BS (just like Matrox is doing).
2- Keep thinking this way about their products and customers and fall before nVidia or another company.
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:42 PM   #4
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:43 PM   #5
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Take that opinion with a grain of salt. Mr. Derek Smart is the developer of the notoriously buggy, virtually unplayable, Battlecruiser 3000 series (mostly heavily, yet inneffective, subsequent patched versions of the same game). So he is not supporting ATI. Big deal. Who's actually playing BC3K anyway? Smart is just a bitter developer in light of all the bad press he's recieved in the last several years.
Sure ATI's drivers are lacking. Maximum PC still gave the 8500 a Kick-Ass 10/10 rating and yet are still wary of driver support. It's a fact of life in the gaming/hardware tech world. By the sounds of it Mr. Smart is in bed with nVidia to begin with. Don't tell me developers & publishers don't get kickbacks by promoting certain products related to their games. It's called business.
I wouldn't discontinue using something because of one negative 'review'. When the Matrix hit theaters way back when I came across a scathing review of it among about 20 raves. Did I refuse to go see the movie because of one single burn from a wannabe no-talent movie director/actor/producer/writer-turned-critic? I went and saw it and made my own decision. As it turned out, the Matrix did indeed suck. JUST KIDDING!!!
Sure the ATI drivers need some work from time to time but I'm not going to trade in a great card like the Radeon because of some wannabe game programmer-with-a-vendetta. The card works just fine for me. I use 3D Studio Max in addition to playing all the major games (excluding the crappy but potential-laden BC3K) and not a crash or glitch from my card has occurred.
It's too bad you're experiencing problems with the card but I wouldn't let this article be the deciding factor in your decision to return it. I'm sure you can get it all sorted out like many of us do when dealing with a new product. Unless, of course, YOU'RE the ONE that bought Battlecruiser
Anyway, whatever your decision: Good Luck!
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Old Oct 27, 2001, 11:56 PM   #6
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I agree that Derek Smart is generally labeled an @ss (and rightely so).

His opinion here is close, though a little more extreme, than mine. True, ATIs drivers arent so great. True, the Quake 3 move was a shady area at best , and the core clock issue is a little underhanded. True, there hardware is great. He forgot to mention their lack of smoothvision: listed as an 'out of the box' feature, if I'm not mistaken.

Probably the most scary part of that editorial was viewing the screenshots of the r200 vs Ti500. Looking at the different shades of colour, the more descript text, and the general presence of all icons by the Ti500, as comparred to the r200s lack of any of the above, shook me up a little. Then I remembered that nvidia has its own problems. I am sure some of the forums more elite members remember that screenie of what was supposed to be a volkswagon beetle in a demolition derby type of game: you could see polygons everywhere (there outline), and in general a mass of triangles protruding from every object. It was a mess. Also remember the nice speed boost the geforce 3 had the night of the r200s deube via the detonator 3 (or 4?) drivers? I wonder how they accomplished that 15-19% speed increase? Beyond that, think about the 2d quality of the two cards? I bet the r200 wins that contest easily.

I would hold out: there drivers will get better, someday. I just noticed an improvment in the latest sets: in both win2k and win98 antialiasing has improved in one of my favorite games, carmageddon 2. There is a set of vertical and horizontal lines crossing to denote upgrades in engine, armor, and power(little boxes all lined up parrellel, 5 wide and about 10 long). With earlier sets of drivers (pre 7189 i believe; dont know the win2k sets, though there is a difference. I was using the 26s before, and the difference occured in the latest set), the edges were blured together and it was quite annoying to look at. With the new ones (7199s and 3281s) there is absolutely no bluring. Anti-aliasing is still present (and better in win98, IMO), but these little squares are now very distinct. A sign of improvment.

Also, note that Ids game (like doom 3 and the like) will be done in open gl: ATI's strong point according to Derek Smart. So of course Carmack would mention the r200. He loves opengl.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 12:00 AM   #7
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Red face Let me get one point clear...

I would NEVER buy that crap of game!!!
And again, I'm not talking about the vendetta this guy has with ATI, I'm talking about the reality of ATI's drivers:
1- D3D=Half baked!!! (they fixed Dx8 partially, but almost every Dx7 game or older is freaking choppy, even with my 8500!!!)
2- OpenGL= They don't have a full ICD, and I too use 3DSMax 3.1, but I can't properly use OpenGL and mainly use Heidi, becuse the views usually have some anoying bug or the program just crashes.
3- These drivers are coming from WAY BACK, from the Rage128, and even through all these years they havent fixed the FogTable!!! I still think they should SCRAP the current drivers and start developing new ones SPECIFICALLY for the Radeon technology.

This card (8500) has a LOT of hardware potential and even the old Radeon still haven't showed what it can really do, all because of the drivers.

Is too sad, ATI should hire gamers at their company for the QA dept. and NOT guys with ties and suit that carry briefcases.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 01:19 AM   #8
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Default Wanna read some hilarious stuff about Derek Smart?

http://www.werewolves.org/~follies/

Don't let ANYTHING he says influence you in ANY WAY.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 01:34 AM   #9
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Default Omegadrive, I ain't gonna argue. :)

Well, that's different. I can understand the points and issues you have with ATI and I agree with you whole-heartedly, it's just I don't think you should use Derek Smart as the reference for your argument. It takes some a serious and valid matter and turns it into a joke.

What would you suggest that ATI do? Or rather, what would you suggest that the ATI-community do to try and get ATI to pull their heads out of their arses? Anyone? I'm serious. I don't think anyone will seriously disagree that ATI could use some work in the public relations department, or that ATI could benefit if they'd interact more with the geeks like us who mix/match/tweak/analyze their drivers as a hobby, or that we could get more use/performance out of our own equipment if ATI was a bit more forthcoming with information.

Sorry, didn't mean for this to turn into a rant but it's late for me. I agree with your points Omegadrive, it's just the example you chose to present your argument was too comical. (I know, you didn't know. )
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 06:32 AM   #10
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Default

well omegadrive i read that article too and I was shocked however I dont care what other people (ie critics) say about the card the drivers or the development team.

The reason is simple I read what actual users have to say about it.

So far everyone who owns one has given it a big thunbs up except for some possible incompatibility probs which is to be expected on the first driver release.

It took the Nvidiots around 6months to put out a decent driver set for the GF3 so why should anyone be worried about drivers at this point?

I realise it can only be returned tommorrow so its your final choice but I think you will be making a big mistake when 5months down the line the R8500 drivers are all fixed (hopefully) and it fulfils its potential I have no doubt this would happen as to be honest if ATI mess up this time I dont think there will be many of us ATI users around for its next card release.

Im sure I wont be
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 06:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
1- D3D=Half baked!!! (they fixed Dx8 partially, but almost every Dx7 game or older is freaking choppy, even with my 8500!!!)
Yeah what's up with that? Some of my perfectly working games suddenly started to run choppy with the latest drivers. Not like low-fps choppy, the framerate is good, it's some kind of weird frames skipping going on...
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 08:17 AM   #12
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"I realise it can only be returned tommorrow so its your final choice but I think you will be making a big mistake when 5months down the line the R8500 drivers are all fixed (hopefully) and it fulfils its potential I have no doubt this would happen as to be honest if ATI mess up this time I dont think there will be many of us ATI users around for its next card release"

1 year ago i gave my V5 back and got myself a radeon.And i found rage3d.Then i was thinking about giving radeon back after seeing driver issues.But everybody on the board saying the same bullshit about the drivers.And now it's 1 year passed.Nothing improved.They released a new card.And look where we are today.I would never buy an ATI product again.I've had rage 128 before and i knew that ati drivers sucks.But everybody were so positive about radeon.I think ppl who thinks ATI will improve something should wake up.I hate to see the same ****in line since rage 128.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 08:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pepsin


Yeah what's up with that? Some of my perfectly working games suddenly started to run choppy with the latest drivers. Not like low-fps choppy, the framerate is good, it's some kind of weird frames skipping going on...
True.. so true. The same thing happened to me too! The games run fine, but there is a lot of stuttering (frame-skipping or something).

OpenGL is fast and good
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 09:18 AM   #14
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I recently bought Radeon 64MB DDR Vivo because I thought "Radeon drives must have been improved, it should beat GF2 and it has excellent image quality"

But now I'm a bit disappointed, drivers aren't up to the quality what I expected, GF2 beats crap out of Radeon in most situations and cap between image qualities is not big anymore. It's too late to return my card, I don't have enough money to buy GF2Ti, so I hope ATI will take driver issues seriously and forgets old Rage drivers and instead starts all over in making completely new drivers.

ATI, please! Show us you CAN and you WILL(make EXCELLENT drivers.
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 09:35 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Keeper
I recently bought Radeon 64MB DDR Vivo because I thought "Radeon drives must have been improved, it should beat GF2 and it has excellent image quality"

But now I'm a bit disappointed, drivers aren't up to the quality what I expected, GF2 beats crap out of Radeon in most situations and cap between image qualities is not big anymore. It's too late to return my card, I don't have enough money to buy GF2Ti, so I hope ATI will take driver issues seriously and forgets old Rage drivers and instead starts all over in making completely new drivers.

ATI, please! Show us you CAN and you WILL make EXCELLENT drivers.
I think the newer Radeon drivers are quite OK. If ATI quickly fixes the stuttering/frames skipping issues I won't have much more to complain about It should be easy since there were no frames skipping with older drivers, this is something that started happening very recently.

I don't know if you've seen the image quality with some of the noname Geforce2 cards, but the difference from my Voodoo5 to the Radeon is amazng (minus FSAA of course). 2D is very clear and sharp and 3D isn't as blurry as it was on the Voodoo5.

Still, I will probably get a Ti500, and not a Radeon 8500 next time I upgrade. Ti500 offers great performance and features NOW, while R8500 might be better sometime in the future. I upgrade NOW, because I need the benefits of a new card NOW, not later. Maybe I'll get the Radeon 9xxx when it's out...
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 10:03 AM   #16
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I agree that the 8500 has potential, but at the same time.. I was very dissapointed with the Radeon 64MB DDR VIVO that I bought. The drivers were allright, and most of my games worked.... but it wasn't as great a card as hardcore ATI fans make it sound... that's what pisses me off about reading highly personal opinions..

Now, let's put it this way..
They have a good hardware with the 8500. Admittedly, I don't think the Ti500 is THAT impressive hardware wise.. but it does its job well at this time. Maybe in the future when ATI releases whatever 8500 Ultra or something.. IF they have decent drivers... then I might consider switching (IF it's as good as NVidia's offering then. )
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Old Oct 28, 2001, 02:51 PM   #17
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Phew I tought it was only me having those frames skip thing.

It is scary seeing people like Omega (someone we should thank everyday for his job on radeon drivers) talking so bad about radeon drivers.

I have always supported ATI and convinced many people in buying radeons instead of nvidia pointing out the better quality and dvd hw decoding features but now I have some doubts.

The other day I was installing a pc for a friend, he bough this cheap GF2 mx200 manufactured by Abit (I was horrified...) and I said to myself, why not test it on my pc to see the difference with my radeon sdr.
I had never used a nvidia card before.
Well I have to say that 2D quality was pretty much the same, playing DVD with Windvd used ~25% of the cpu time exactly the same as my radeon.

But the most amazing thing was that EVERYTHING worked out of the box!!

If I had to upgrade now for sure it would be GF3 Ti200.
Radeon 8500 is amazing but who knows when decent drivers will be out?
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Old Oct 29, 2001, 03:44 AM   #18
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I Really think the ATI driver team should read this thread
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Old Oct 29, 2001, 07:20 AM   #19
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Not the driver team.The guy who hires ATI's driver team should see this thread.
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