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Old May 7, 2020, 01:31 PM   #571
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Nascar24
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Originally Posted by bill dennison View Post

and the only $800 NV graphics card will be the 3070 this time

[/url]


If the 3080 goes for more then $800 at launch and AMD is not out yet I will be waiting for AMD and their prices.

3070 for $800 Preposterous, but I wouldn't put it past Nvidia after the 2000 series debacle.
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Old May 7, 2020, 01:34 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by aviphysics View Post
Who is putting out second rate hardware and who is starving who?
Do you consider AMD's GPU's competition for Nvidia's over the last decade? I think they steal a good amount of mid range purchases but they don't push the PC platform forward. Even with 7nm GPU's they are nowhere near a 2080TI which has been on the market for 2 years with no competition.

AMD's CPU's are pretty much on par with Intel's when it comes to multi threading and considerably slower in single thread performance. They don't put on a bad show but they are rocking 7nm vs Intel's 5 year old 14nm tech. I would hardly consider them pushing the boundaries of the PC platform. They are doing great in the server market where it doesn't effect their console ambitions but that's about it.

The PC needs a steady pace of products that push the industry forward. Otherwise we get what we have had for the last decade. The leaders sit around waiting for competition just hardly improving while the so called competition puts out slightly slower tech over and over again despite the lack of improvement on the platform.

It's rumored that the delay of Ampere is because of this buying up of TSMC's capacity and I believe it. It's looks intentional to me. Cards will be hard to come buy and prices will be higher. Yet most of us are still looking to buy Nvidia over AMD. Why is that?
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Old May 7, 2020, 01:35 PM   #573
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If the 3080 goes for more then $800 at launch and AMD is not out yet I will be waiting for AMD and their prices.

3070 for $800 Preposterous, but I wouldn't put it past Nvidia after the 2000 series debacle.
with short supply it maybe that or it maybe Samsung and they fabed Vega i think
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Old May 7, 2020, 01:39 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by bill dennison View Post
with DL2 dead now 2077 is the only game i care about and maybe playing it for a year

so if SLI works good i have no problem dropping 550 or so on a used 2080 ti strix and getting a AMD navi 2x for my 3800x system

will most likely have to upgrade my 1900x threadripper also maybe a 2950X
i hate having to open that TR4 socket
I know what you mean, I'm in the same boat when it comes to gaming. DL2 is just another loss for this year. 2077 looks great and I hope it delivers a game with a lot of replay ability. The only thing I can think of that could be a problem for you is the 2080TI's RTX performance. Having two of them would help but you may be better off buying 2x new gen cards in the end. Doesn't have to be a 3080TI but with the suspected RTX performance increases this gen, I expect a pretty big performance gain in that area this time around and 2077 is expected to be a heavy hitter with RTX effects. One of the show case RTX games.
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Old May 7, 2020, 02:31 PM   #575
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The Gtx 1080 was released in May of 2016 and the Rtx 2080 was released in September of 2018 -- that's 2 years and 4 months. Why does anyone think Ampere or Rtx 3080 is delayed -- it isn't even close to two years yet.
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Old May 7, 2020, 02:47 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by SIrPauly View Post
The Gtx 1080 was released in May of 2016 and the Rtx 2080 was released in September of 2018 -- that's 2 years and 4 months. Why does anyone think Ampere or Rtx 3080 is delayed -- it isn't even close to two years yet.
i seem to remember nvidia going on 18 month cycles from 12 but i don't remember them ever saying 24+ cycles

they are late .


AMD is severely late on a high end GPU
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Old May 7, 2020, 02:48 PM   #577
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I have no way of knowing but I've read multiple articles have alluded to it being late. Probably because 2 year cycle times are ridiculous and shouldn't be considered the norm. If Hopper is supposed to come out in 2021 and so is Ampere's mid range line up then it looks like Ampere was delayed. They can't launch a product lineup without any manufacturing capability to build it. They are cutting the lineup down to Samsung 8nm just to get this series out before it runs into hopper. That's what I'm seeing. Most likely Hopper will be pushed back into 2022.
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Old May 7, 2020, 02:54 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
Do you consider AMD's GPU's competition for Nvidia's over the last decade? I think they steal a good amount of mid range purchases but they don't push the PC platform forward. Even with 7nm GPU's they are nowhere near a 2080TI which has been on the market for 2 years with no competition.

AMD's CPU's are pretty much on par with Intel's when it comes to multi threading and considerably slower in single thread performance. They don't put on a bad show but they are rocking 7nm vs Intel's 5 year old 14nm tech. I would hardly consider them pushing the boundaries of the PC platform. They are doing great in the server market where it doesn't effect their console ambitions but that's about it.

The PC needs a steady pace of products that push the industry forward. Otherwise we get what we have had for the last decade. The leaders sit around waiting for competition just hardly improving while the so called competition puts out slightly slower tech over and over again despite the lack of improvement on the platform.

It's rumored that the delay of Ampere is because of this buying up of TSMC's capacity and I believe it. It's looks intentional to me. Cards will be hard to come buy and prices will be higher. Yet most of us are still looking to buy Nvidia over AMD. Why is that?
last 5 years no not at the highest end card
Fury X was their last good high end card and two in CFX did well at 4k at the time

but the RX 5700 XT is selling like crazy

Quote:
AMD has sold more GPUs than Nvidia, according to this analyst report
https://www.techradar.com/news/amd-h...analyst-report

face it few want these highest end cards but us
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Old May 7, 2020, 03:01 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
I have no way of knowing but I've read multiple articles have alluded to it being late. Probably because 2 year cycle times are ridiculous and shouldn't be considered the norm. If Hopper is supposed to come out in 2021 and so is Ampere's mid range line up then it looks like Ampere was delayed. They can't launch a product lineup without any manufacturing capability to build it. They are cutting the lineup down to Samsung 8nm just to get this series out before it runs into hopper. That's what I'm seeing. Most likely Hopper will be pushed back into 2022.
or Hopper will stay 2021 and there will be no 3080 ti at all just Samsung 3080 and below and TSMC pro cards
it would not be the first time there was no ti card

i want Hopper if it is MCM .

and i want AMD's MCM card

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Old May 7, 2020, 03:32 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by bill dennison View Post

if it is over last times price and i think it will be i won't buy a 1500+ 3080 ti strix
and could care less for the 3080 non ti and below

or i will but nothing and just hold onto my 2080 ti
If a 3080Ti is that expensive I'll hold on to my 2080Ti until something comes along that kills it. Not seeing anything in 2020 that'll do that (Cyberpunk perhaps?)
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Old May 7, 2020, 03:39 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by bill dennison View Post
last 5 years no not at the highest end card
Fury X was their last good high end card and two in CFX did well at 4k at the time

but the RX 5700 XT is selling like crazy



https://www.techradar.com/news/amd-h...analyst-report

face it few want these highest end cards but us
For once, I think we are in perfect agreement on this. AMD is making a lot of money off the mainstream from consoles and on the mid range PC. It's true that not many people a willing to pay top dollar for a high end product and with no competition at the top of the pile, things have not moved forward for years. The mid range is actually forcing the top to move forward but at a snails pace and the premium over console land and mid range GPU's are getting less in less performance with higher prices. Of course the gaming scene is pure console land anyway so it's not like you are going to need a top dollar CPU or GPU to play indie games on the PC. The PC is simply not what it once was and neither is PC gaming.
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Old May 7, 2020, 03:42 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
For once, I think we are in perfect agreement on this. AMD is making a lot of money off the mainstream from consoles and on the mid range PC. It's true that not many people a willing to pay top dollar for a high end product and with no competition at the top of the pile, things have not moved forward for years. The mid range is actually forcing the top to move forward but at a snails pace and the premium over console land and mid range GPU's are getting less in less performance with higher prices. Of course the gaming scene is pure console land anyway so it's not like you are going to need a top dollar CPU or GPU to play indie games on the PC. The PC is simply not what it once was and neither is PC gaming.
there is always one game

lets hope we see this soon " yes but can it run cyberpunk 2077 "

and then there is Cyberpunk 2077 multiplayer in 2022
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Old May 7, 2020, 03:58 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by bill dennison View Post
or Hopper will stay 2021 and there will be no 3080 ti at all just Samsung 3080 and below and TSMC pro cards
it would not be the first time there was no ti card

i want Hopper if it is MCM .

and i want AMD's MCM card
Even if there isn't a 3080TI performance wise they will just call a 3080 a 3080TI and charge more for it like they did last time. I do hold out a small hope for Stalker 2. GSP is another independent dev that is PC focused and capable of driving the unreal engine in an interesting direction. It may not ever come out though but I've got my fingers crossed.

If GTA 6 comes out on the PC two years late at the same 4K resolution as console with sub 60fps performance on $1500 cards like RDR2 did then I'm not really excited for the graphical boosts it can bring. They are going to need to do more than crank the shadows and draw distance up an extra notch or two to make these cards worth the price tag. They need to lower the prices and support SLI or my interest in the platform will be lost regarding gaming. I do very much appreciate the graphical boosts but it needs to run at 60FPS with SLI and they need to get their pricing a little more in line with the experience they are actually delivering. By the end of the year consoles are going to be delivering a pretty solid experience and the PC needs to adjust and fast. These last 5 years have been painful in terms of performance and price as well as stand out PC games.

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Old May 7, 2020, 04:10 PM   #584
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there is always one game

lets hope we see this soon " yes but can it run cyberpunk 2077 "

and then there is Cyberpunk 2077 multiplayer in 2022
Maybe Crysis Remastered?
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Old May 7, 2020, 04:15 PM   #585
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If a 3080Ti is that expensive I'll hold on to my 2080Ti until something comes along that kills it. Not seeing anything in 2020 that'll do that (Cyberpunk perhaps?)
You know KAC is going to have a field day with you if you do that.
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Old May 7, 2020, 04:17 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by bill dennison View Post
i seem to remember nvidia going on 18 month cycles from 12 but i don't remember them ever saying 24+ cycles

they are late .


AMD is severely late on a high end GPU
That may be semantics: sometimes there may be refreshes or new arcitectures. For example: Kepler lasted almost 2 years, Maxwell about 2 years, Pascal about 2 years. I'm surprised that the current Ti didn't receive a Super refresh.
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Old May 7, 2020, 04:31 PM   #587
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It depends on how you look at it. The 1080TI came out a year later and offered 40% advantages over the regular 1080. The 980TI was not as huge but did something similar. The 2080TI came out at the same time as the 2080 and the 2080 didn't offer any performance advantage over the 1080TI and had less Vram. The 2080TI has been coasting for 2 years with no competition. It's simply a bad showing from both AMD and Nvidia over these last years. Oh, and the price doubled for unknown reasons.

I remember when I used to pay $499 for the best card and new games would not be able to be pushed to 60FPS with all effects maxed out at the standard resolutions of the time. That was ok, the problem is that they offered 2x cards for $1000 that allowed us to get around it. If they can't make SLI work and we have to go back to sub 60FPS then ok but why are we paying $1200 to $1500 to play at 4k sub 60FPS? Consoles can do that as well and even if they have lower graphical effects don't you think the price discrepancy between a $500 console and a $1500 GPU is a bit extreme and a poor value considering they are both playing at 4K sub 60FPS with DX12? We used to get higher frame rates and higher resolutions with graphical effects that couldn't be produced on console hardware and we paid 200 more than a console for the GPU and then had the rest of the PC costs to consider. It felt like a fair price for a better experience. I no longer feel that, especially now that games on the PC are not more deep or mature than console games. They have simply been chipping away at the PC for too long without any response.

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Old May 7, 2020, 04:41 PM   #588
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For once, I think we are in perfect agreement on this. AMD is making a lot of money off the mainstream from consoles and on the mid range PC. It's true that not many people a willing to pay top dollar for a high end product and with no competition at the top of the pile, things have not moved forward for years. The mid range is actually forcing the top to move forward but at a snails pace and the premium over console land and mid range GPU's are getting less in less performance with higher prices. Of course the gaming scene is pure console land anyway so it's not like you are going to need a top dollar CPU or GPU to play indie games on the PC. The PC is simply not what it once was and neither is PC gaming.
The problem with Bill's link is that share number includes integrated, the apple-to-apple comparison is discrete which Nvidia leads 73 to 27 percent, I think. Also Amd lost 21 percent sequentially on revenue from the Sc sector, should improve with new console orders in future quarters.
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Old May 7, 2020, 04:43 PM   #589
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You know KAC is going to have a field day with you if you do that.
He won't be the only one but trust me, I don't crap 100s...
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Old May 7, 2020, 04:48 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by SIrPauly View Post
The problem with Bill's link is that share number includes integrated, the apple-to-apple comparison is discrete which Nvidia leads 73 to 27 percent, I think. Also Amd lost 21 percent sequentially on revenue from the Sc sector, should improve with new console orders in future quarters.
Quote:
AMD Radeon GPUs Gained Big Chunk Of Discrete Market Share Versus NVIDIA GeForce In Q4 2019 – Up From 27% To 31%
https://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-and-...share-q4-2019/

this is integrated
Quote:
AMD tops NVIDIA in GPU sales, according to report
https://www.windowscentral.com/amd-t...cording-report

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Old May 7, 2020, 05:07 PM   #591
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Old May 7, 2020, 05:14 PM   #592
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The problem with Bill's link is that share number includes integrated, the apple-to-apple comparison is discrete which Nvidia leads 73 to 27 percent, I think. Also Amd lost 21 percent sequentially on revenue from the Sc sector, should improve with new console orders in future quarters.
I'm not worried about financials. Nvidia is too far ahead of AMD for them to ever be a threat. My problem is that the majority are cheap a$$es that don't support progress and Nvidia has now decided to raise the price of their cards so that they only appeal to 1 percenter elitists instead of real gamers. It's left the PC market in a toxic place where it has little benefit and little reason to exist at outrageous costs. This isn't because big bad Nvidia either it comes down to competition and selling to the lowest common denominator. It's the same thing that happens with dumbed down video games vs quality games. You will always see COD 85 at the top of the sales charts.

The fact that AMD could make any progress in the GPU sector at all is plain silly. Their best 7nm card can't beat a 4 year old 1080TI and yet they get support. I'm glad the U.S. government cut AMD's joint venture with communist China. Maybe the anti capitalist trolls from over there will ease up on progress after it dies off. It is sad to see the PC market turned into a predominantly indie hub with console ports. But I won't continue to bash AMD and Microsoft as it's simply pointless. I know a lot of people are invested in the underdog and want to see them win for their own gain but truth be told they shouldn't progress as a company unless they produce better products than their competition which is simply not happening at this point and hasn't for years. Seeing this resource hogging is simply another example of how shady things have gotten from both companies.
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Old May 7, 2020, 05:27 PM   #593
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I consider Amd a serious threat, things can dramatically change in the the tech sector.
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Old May 7, 2020, 05:36 PM   #594
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I don't and here is why. Sony and Microsoft will only throw cash at hardware that can benefit them. Which means budget hardware that moves at a snails pace and can fit into little itty bitty console boxes. Nvidia makes more from AI, and data center than AMD will ever hope to achieve. They simply can't beat them financially. Selling cheap console trinkets and sub par variants on the PC platform will never make AMD a threat to Nvidia. Their CPU division does add some threat but given their performance vs 14nm I don't expect them to compete once U.S. fabs get back on their feet over at Intel. The only reason AMD is standing at all is because of China's TSMC and Sony and Microsoft cash. They can't fund competitive products on their own and they can't fab them either and now they are fighting for fab capacity with companies that have 100x the resources they do. Once Intel gets back on it's feet it's game over.

Personally I'd like to see google or amazon fund their own competitive CPU's and let Intel crash into Nvidia on the GPU front. AMD is not competition, they are in the way and have drug the PC down to the point where they can compete with console hardware which is unacceptable and will spell the death of PC gaming.

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Old May 7, 2020, 05:36 PM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIrPauly View Post
I consider Amd a serious threat, things can dramatically change in the the tech sector.
why ?

all competition is good for gamers .

they are handing Intel their ass it would be even better if they did it to NV also for a while
Quote:
AMD has "more than 50% share" of high-end CPU sales globally
https://www.pcgamer.com/amd-market-share-gain-q1-2020/


NV needs and more than deserves a good kick in the nuts just as bad as Intel did

i hope the navi 2x make the 9700 pro look like a fail

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Old May 7, 2020, 06:09 PM   #596
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I think you may be misreading my quote there, i think Amd is a serious threat.

Eventually integration will get powerful enough or good enough to win more share and enter more form factors, especially with efficient arcitectures. You're seeing it now with wins for Amd and gains in share.


The console advantage: with developers using underlying Amd hardware is potentially huge for Amd and Radeon still.

The futue of the Gpu is not necessarily discrete gaming but more professional and data centers. You can see this from the investments made by Nvidia, Intel and Amd.
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Old May 7, 2020, 06:30 PM   #597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIrPauly View Post
I think you may be misreading my quote there, i think Amd is a serious threat.

Eventually integration will get powerful enough or good enough to win more share and enter more form factors, especially with efficient arcitectures. You're seeing it now with wins for Amd and gains in share.


The console advantage: with developers using underlying Amd hardware is potentially huge for Amd and Radeon still.

The futue of the Gpu is not necessarily discrete gaming but more professional and data centers. You can see this from the investments made by Nvidia, Intel and Amd.
sure i said that years ago here somewhere Intel and Amd will all be APU or integrated graphics on all the low and mid range and maybe even high mid range systems

Intel and Amd have been heading this way since the first integrated graphics CPU
and i think Intel had the first one

and i think all the high end cards maybe well be the same GPU chiplets in a MCM package GPU
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Old May 7, 2020, 06:56 PM   #598
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There isn't much 3xxx series info but you may not agree but the greatest transformative investment Nvidia did was the innovation of Cuda and its underlying hardware capabilities.
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Old May 7, 2020, 07:15 PM   #599
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i think Intel getting into high end pro GPU'S is a more serious threat to NV

with integrated graphics eating the bottom end and Intel's money and name brand going after the high end pro cards now

NV better hope this is another flop
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/72205...man/index.html
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Old May 7, 2020, 08:02 PM   #600
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Originally Posted by SIrPauly View Post
There isn't much 3xxx series info but you may not agree but the greatest transformative investment Nvidia did was the innovation of Cuda and its underlying hardware capabilities.
I can agree with that, somebody had the vision over there to come up with a great architecture that works beautifully with a huge assortment of applications and allows a mathematical, simplistic progression towards performance enhancement. As impressed as I am with MCM and all of the other tech that is pushing future designs it's Nvidia's almost simplistic layout of attacking data that makes it great for so much more than just gaming but still optimal at everything it does.

All chip design is constantly getting smaller but you don't just sit there on your laurels. The MCM design that AMD has been pushing with CPU's/GPU's as well as Nvidia's hopper show the need for bigger and better. Not everything is a cell phone or a console. Unless they can build something that fits in a console or cell phone and can process everything without limitation there is always going to be a need for discrete, bigger, better. If you shrink the chips and stitch them together into a monster then that sounds great to me. AMD is still making progression for sure I'm just annoyed at their mainstream PC integration.

The problem is that they are seeing that the majority of people can't tell the difference between 4K and 1080P. They can't tell if AA is enabled or not, they can't tell if the game is at 120fps or 30fps. If they can serve the majority with garbage then they can make more sales by selling garbage. That's great for making money but not for pushing things forward. It won't pay off for PC consumers if there is nothing left because progress stopped in the mainstream PC sector to allow consoles to intrude on it.

I agree with Bill about Intel's graphics as well. They are pushing for the top and it will probably put the squeezy on Nvidia in ways that AMD simply cannot. They can peddle to the home user once they figure out how to own the industry. They are not starting small with hopes of getting better. It doesn't matter if the design is small or big though because each design has it's own use, what's important is the efficiency. The size equates to more power at whatever efficiency you are working with. Making a chip that can beat a 3900X and fits in a cell phone is great but there will always be the need for a 3900X sized chip that can deliver 4x the power of the cell phone or console. There will always be a demand for more power and it will always require more space no matter how small the chiplets get. Regardless of efficiency, Intel is going for big air for their current GPU project. It looks like Intel let Raja Koduri run around with unlimited resources to build the ultimate GPU.

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