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Old Jun 12, 2002, 04:50 PM   #1
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Hellbinder
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Default R300 vs. Parhelia round one. (Benchmarks)

Sooo, all you binder haters and naysayers out there... Who all think im some unfair, biased stooge

Straight from MaximumPC, benchmarks of a beta PArhelia.The system consisted of a P4 2Ghz w/ 512 Megs Ram. They ran the Quake III Benches at 1280x1024 @ 32 bit color, 3DMark 2001 was at [email protected] bit color.


No AA, No anisotropic filtering
Quake 3: 72.1fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game2 High Detail : 56.3 fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game4: 21.1 fps
3DMark 2001 SE Default Score: 7698

16x AA, no anisotropic filtering
Quake 3: Would Not Run
3dmark 2001 SE Game2 High Detail : 47.7 fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game4: 15.0 fps
3DMark 2001 SE Default Score: 6089

No AA, anisotropic filtering On
Quake 3: 56.6fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game2 High Detail : 45.5 fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game4: 10.98 fps
3DMark 2001 SE Default Score: 6526

16x AA, anisotropic filtering On
Quake 3: Would Not Run
3dmark 2001 SE Game2 High Detail : 40.1 fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game4: 8.9 fps
3DMark 2001 SE Default Score: 5241

Now, does this sound like a card that you want to pay 400$ for? or that is even a worthy next-gen product? I dont think so. granted this is on "beta" hardware and dirvers. But R300 in the same condition is already 20% faster than a GF4 ti 4600.

Parhelia-512 july/august 399$
R300 August/Sept 299$

In fact my Radeon 8500 has the same or better performance except for FSAA, and only costs 150$ now.

I rest my case.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:15 PM   #2
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Thanks for the benchmarks. I had a feeling the parhelia was going to suck. The specs at matrox's site doesn't even mention any type of T&L.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:15 PM   #3
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Plese binder , post a direct link to the benchmarks if you can .
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:19 PM   #4
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sorry, its out of the latest issue of MaximumPC. Youll have to go buy it. The good news is NO ONE will be able to say Im just pulling this out of my booty.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: R300 vs. Parhelia round one. (Benchmarks)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Now, does this sound like a card that you want to pay 400$ for? or that is even a worthy next-gen product? I dont think so. granted this is on "beta" hardware and dirvers. But R300 in the same condition is already 20% faster than a GF4 ti 4600.

Parhelia-512 july/august 399$
R300 August/Sept 299$

In fact my Radeon 8500 has the same or better performance except for FSAA, and only costs 150$ now.

I rest my case.
Those benchmarks show that the beta drivers of the parhelia are behind those of the R300. Also, what do we have from the R300, only 3DMark relative scores? The race is far from over.

What's more worrying are those "Quake3: Would not run" at 16x antialiasing. Do they show that these must be really beta drivers or are they a problem with Matrox's new fragment anti-antialiasing method?

Cheers,
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:28 PM   #6
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I know P512 is not R300 competition but binder stop bashing the new Matrox card . It has good parts too .

There are people around here that understand your points so there is no need to try convincing some Matrox lovers that their card is shitty . Parhelia is a great card even @ the 399$ price .

I understand what you mean and I've never doubted that the Matrox card wouldn't be slower than R300 or NV30 .
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:28 PM   #7
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One more thing so that people don't get the wrong idea.

These scores will come up, especially the nature scores and similar types of programs. This simply points out that the final product is going to be at about the GF4 Ti 4200 level in D3D. Their OpenGL drivers clearly, clearly SUCK just like always. They are supposed to release this card in about 30 days... draw your own conclusions.

Parhelia has more than a T&L unit it has 4 128bit vertex shaders. One or more of wich can emulate a hardware T&L.

The bottom line is this, Do you really think they are going to improve their drivers accross so many different levels in only 30 days?..... again Draw your own conclusions.

Lastly, Several hardware sites recieved their review board this week. the NDA totally lifts on the 14th. by Friday we will all see the current product. Thats Why i said round one in the title.

Round two starts Friday, Round 3 will be when the Rv250 and R300 launches.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:31 PM   #8
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I dunno, but 6000+ 3dmarks with 16x AA seems pretty impressive to me. 30% loss with both aniso & AA...

Keep in mind, just like everybody's pointing out about the R300 20% number, this is early hardware and software and not necessarily indicative of the performance of the final product.

It seems like with the next-gen chips, current games/benchmarks might not be able to take advantage of all those pixel pipelines and TMUs...we've already seen that performance doesn't seem to scale linearly with fill rate. OTOH, you may be able to crank the details and run with AA & aniso and not have the huge performance drop we see with current cards.

Whether or not Parhelia is worth $400, I couldn't say. I know that I for one will never pay that much for a video card. It may be a strong alternative to $2000 professional cards, though.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:33 PM   #9
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look its a 400$ card comming out a monthish before the R300. How is it NOT competition for the R300.

At this point its barley equal to an 8500.....16x FAA is only compatible with games that do NOT use stencil shadows. Meaning that ALL Id based games are incompatible including the new doom. Clearly though with FAA many D3D games will look great, and perform with very minimal loss.

This is a DX8 card. It is compatible with todays games. It is not dx9, so there are no "pipelines and such" that cant be used.

Call it bashing if you want. Its no different that we would treat the Nv30, or the Nvidians will treat the R300. They are all going to be the "latest" and greatest at around the same time for around the same market price.

Thats just the way it is.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:35 PM   #10
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Oh ... more great news .

So on Friday the real benchmarking will begin ... OK .

Anyway . I expect a 20% performance boost on an final card with the help of the drivers too .

This would make this 5-10% faster than the GF4 Ti 4600 which is nice ...
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:35 PM   #11
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Default Re: R300 vs. Parhelia round one. (Benchmarks)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
No AA, No anisotropic filtering
Quake 3: 72.1fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game2 High Detail : 56.3 fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game4: 21.1 fps
3DMark 2001 SE Default Score: 7698

16x AA, no anisotropic filtering
Quake 3: Would Not Run
3dmark 2001 SE Game2 High Detail : 47.7 fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game4: 15.0 fps
3DMark 2001 SE Default Score: 6089

No AA, anisotropic filtering On
Quake 3: 56.6fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game2 High Detail : 45.5 fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game4: 10.98 fps
3DMark 2001 SE Default Score: 6526

16x AA, anisotropic filtering On
Quake 3: Would Not Run
3dmark 2001 SE Game2 High Detail : 40.1 fps
3dmark 2001 SE Game4: 8.9 fps
3DMark 2001 SE Default Score: 5241
Well, regarding the combination of full FSAA and Anisotropic filtering, this card looks like a clear winner -- except for being unable to run Quake 3 with FSAA (driver bug, no doubt). Only a 32% drop from all clear to full FSAA and Aniso is quite impressive. I'd really like to see some screenshots of this in action, though. The speed is not particularily incredible, unfortunately. Still, we need more benchmarks using more programs, like Codecreatures, to make any meaningful conclusions.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
The bottom line is this, Do you really think they are going to improve their drivers accross so many different levels in only 30 days?.....
FIrst of all, I believe the QuakeIII scores are based on some non-standard Quake3 demo. So we'd have to see numbers for the GeForce card based on the same demo. (Not "Timedemo001" for example).

Second, 30 days? Try 60-90. What do you think the lead time is between when Maximum PC got the beta Matrox hardware, and when the magaize hit the streets? Surely, it's not "instantaneous".

Quote:
Call it bashing if you want.
OK, you're bashing. Worse yet, using distorted and incomplete info without telling the whole story.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:41 PM   #13
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no they where using FAA, that will NEVER be compatible with Q3 and its not a driver issue.

East17...

Are you on cold medicine? Faster than a GF4 ti 4600? Those scores are from less that 30(ok 60-90) days ago. I realize you are just trying to put a posotive spin on it. But its not even REMOTELY as fast as a Ti 4600 now. How on earth do you extrapolate that to being faster....

Nonsense.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:44 PM   #14
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This is the same card that demo'd a beta copy of UT2003 on beta hardware with beta drivers at a playable resolution of 3840x1024, right?

MuFu.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
OK, you're bashing. Worse yet, using distorted and incomplete info without telling the whole story.
Joe, all I have to say to that is BULLSHIT!!!! Stop slandering my post. You are the one who is trying to make it look like im posting nonsense. The numbers are what they are. You dont like it? ITS NOT MY DAMN PROBLEM!!!

Its not distorted, and its not incomplete. Its the information available to us. As i stated DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
no they where using FAA, that will NEVER be compatible with Q3 and its not a driver issue.

East17...

Are you on cold medicine? Faster than a GF4 ti 4600? Those scores are from less that 30(ok 60-90) days ago. I realize you are just trying to put a posotive spin on it. But its not even REMOTELY as fast as a Ti 4600 now. How on earth do you extrapolate that to being faster....

Nonsense.
Eh ... I'm just being hopefull here man ...
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 05:57 PM   #17
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sorry east...

I did not intend to come off so snappy. I just get tired of people who Claim, im wrong or twisting the facts (not you) or whatever, when at least 90% of the time i am correct.

let me point out one last time the AA they used is FAA, It is custom. it does not support any games with Stencil shadows, may or may not be compatible with all games anyway.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 06:34 PM   #18
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Hellbinder, you're a twit. If you knew anything about journalism, you'd know it takes awhile to print out a magazine on paper. I have worked for a magazine in the past, and they usually like reviews/write-ups done 20-30 days before the magazine will be released. This gives them time to edit, format the layout, and finally print it. So those results are probably 30 days old.

Secondly, who ever said the Parhelia would be faster than the R300? Jesus man, YOU ARE BASHING. Matrox even stated this card wasn't supposed to be an FPS buster.

Thirdly, the Parhelia doesn't shine in raw performance but is designed to have a good fps with maxed out IQ. I'd like to see some features tested, specifically some DX8/9 features to see what it can do, because that is what counts.

Anyway, I'm tired of your BS. Go look at a pic of a R300 and continue with your masturbation. This thread is only an attempt to bash the Parhelia.
 
Old Jun 12, 2002, 06:48 PM   #19
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sheesh....

Quote:
So those results are probably 30 days old.
Um, I may be a twit... but i did say they are about 30 days old. (read more). After someone else panned me i even gave them 60-90 days... which i know is wrong. As I have worked for a magazine to..
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 06:53 PM   #20
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a little message for all of you.....

I may not be soup, and i may not come from a store. But i LOVE you. If i am not soup, and I dont come from a store....

then maybe this is all just a big mistake .......


One last time it is realavent because they are launching at nearly the same time, and are going to ask for an estemated 400$ a pop.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 06:55 PM   #21
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Another thing Hellbinder, I don't care that you posted the results at all, that's fine. It's just the way you do it. No matter how you defend it, you ARE bashing the Parhelia, and this thread proves that. Maybe in the future you should think about what you are going to post before you do it. I mean, if you just plainly would have posted the specs and said here they are, that would've been acceptable. But you had to be an fanATIc and do the whole, my R300 will be better than your Parhelia bit. Give it up man, sheesh...
 
Old Jun 12, 2002, 07:04 PM   #22
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i am bashing the parhelia, as I think it deserves it. And im not afraid to say it.

Also,,,, look at my sig. I just bought a GF4 ti 4200. Would a FanATIc do that. I think the PArhelia overrated period. Compare it ti GF4, Nv30, 8500, R300 whatever you like. There is no damn way that card is worth 400$. period. I hate Nvidia's business practices not their products. I dislike Matrox product, not matrox.

Parhelia is a 250$ card TOPS.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 07:29 PM   #23
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*sigh*

Hey whats up hellbinder after not seeing your biased posts for a while i thought u had finally stop posting BS, going by your stupid assumptions i guess that the r300 is only 20% faster than a ti4600, as the beta version supposedly runs 20% faster

Your looking at the beta card with beta and saying oh my r8500 can compete with it, the actual review will be out sometime this week i believe. You really are stupid how many times have you bashed this card, you just don't give up do you. Do you actually read the magazine before you, did you read that they mentioned not to pass judgement until shipping hardware. Did you mention that those results are done @ 1280x1024, also if your unbiased tell me how the screenshots with FAA look, are they crap ?????? beta hardware = lower clock speeds, raw drivers why do you assume so much that coz the beta isn't great you think the actual one is as bad.

Who cares if you bought a Ti4200, didn't you say that was for your sister so whats that got to do with anything. You not bash nvidia man thats the dumbest thing ive ever read from you, you have bashed their cards loads of times so don't even try to deny it.

Before you have seen the cards actual performance you bash it, WTF if those were benchies for the real card then yes what ur saying is true but they are not
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 07:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
i am bashing the parhelia, as I think it deserves it. And im not afraid to say it.

Also,,,, look at my sig. I just bought a GF4 ti 4200. Would a FanATIc do that. I think the PArhelia overrated period. Compare it ti GF4, Nv30, 8500, R300 whatever you like. There is no damn way that card is worth 400$. period. I hate Nvidia's business practices not their products. I dislike Matrox product, not matrox.

Parhelia is a 250$ card TOPS.
Don't like it - don't buy it.

Also you faked your signature.

And also you faked the results.

And also lied about being journalism.

And, finally, you are saying that in atleast 90% of the time you are right... Well if you think that you are the smartest person in the world, I'll have to say that you are not, cause smart and knowing people don't say "I am right!!!".

Stop bashing Parhelia. Make a card that is atleast as powerful as parhelia-512, and only then I will respect your opinion. Right now you are no-one...
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 07:50 PM   #25
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How did he fake his signature??
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 08:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by SsP45
How did he fake his signature??
He just wrote 4200 for purpose, so he won't look like a he is a very stupid fanATic
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 08:12 PM   #27
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Wink

Interesting...
Peeps will actually verbally shread another person over a product, a video card they will probably never buy to boot.
Amazing.
This isn't about matrox...this is about "who can the mob pummel today". Lets stay on topic here posting interesting info. Is that too much to ask?
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 08:34 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by sherlock
Interesting...
Peeps will actually verbally shread another person over a product, a video card they will probably never buy to boot.
Amazing.
This isn't about matrox...this is about "who can the mob pummel today". Lets stay on topic here posting interesting info. Is that too much to ask?
I don't like saying bad things about other members but this isn't the first time hellbinder has gone and made a topic bashing other companies products, im just saying wait until the actual card is out before you bash it. The first couple of times i did tell hellbinder what he was saying was wrong politely i just got flamed back by him. This thread is useless anyhow, neither card is out, only one cards specs are fully known so it is pointless debating about which card is better seeing how they are not out. Ill also apologize for flaming hellbinder.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 08:55 PM   #29
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Don't spend 400$ and waste money and time with Matrox.
I would say, everybody should go for r300 and that's it.
Ati in beta stage is already faster for 20% than Geforce 4ti 4600...considering that Geforce 4ti 4600 is damn fast card (pure speed) and add 20% to that. Man, this time Ati really did good job
I can't wait for august/september .
Second, r300 is full directx 9.0 card and that's mean a lot.
And finally don't forget about picture quality, tv out and support for dvd and mpeg...man you have to get that.
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Old Jun 12, 2002, 09:02 PM   #30
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Quote:
Joe, all I have to say to that is BULLSHIT!!!! Stop slandering my post.
I'm doing no such thing. I call 'em as I see 'em. You don't like it? "That's you own damn problem!!!"

Quote:
You are the one who is trying to make it look like im posting nonsense. The numbers are what they are. You dont like it? ITS NOT MY DAMN PROBLEM!!!
I did not say the NUMBERS ar nonsense. It's your thought process. Got it? That would be the same thought process you used to "conclude" that Carmack was comparing the R300 to the NV30...

Quote:
Its not distorted, and its not incomplete. Its the information available to us. As i stated DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.
I have...my conclusion? You're a twit!

As for the info being "incomplete", and otherwise not being useful for a good comparison:

How does the Ti 4600 on that machine run Quake3 with anisotropic? How fast does the Radeon run with FSAA? How many games does FAA work for, and how many not? At 1600x1200x32 with anisotropic, how does Parhelia compare with GeForce? What about with games that have heavy multitexturing?

Matrox has said OVER AND OVER that
1) Parhelia won't be any FPS demon....

Now, you continually take that out of context and throw it back in Matrox's face by saying something like "even Matrox admits it won't beat a Ti 4600".

While you conveniently ignore:

2) Parhelia is designed to take MINIMAL performance hits while cranking up the visual quality. (Aniso, AA, additional texturing....)

So, I reserve judgement on Parhelia until we see what it can do in high detail scenes. Until then, we haven't seen Parhelia being compared directly on what Matrox claims its strength is.
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