HD5800 SuperSample AA, why it's blurry?

becco · Sep 23, 2009, 06:06 AM

Taken from Anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3643&p=14

8xMSAA

new ATI's 8xSSAA

**Gandalfthewhite** · Sep 23, 2009, 06:17 AM

its the nature of SSAA when you do it on EVERYTHING. textures included

SIrPauly · Sep 23, 2009, 06:41 AM

That's really blurry and looks like they're not adding any negative lod to compensate.

demowhc · Sep 23, 2009, 06:50 AM

If you read the article you will see they said it's a bug with source engine games and that they then tested Crysis Warhead and the image quality was on par with MSAA+AAA and not blurry.. You will also see that they say Nvidia SSAA is even worse and they couldn't even use it for testing because it made whole branches disappear, which is why Nvidia doesn't officialy support it. They even go as far to say that Nvidia SSAA is no good for general use..

jolle · Sep 23, 2009, 07:45 AM

It´s awesome they´re including official SSAA support either way.
Maybe NV will get around and do the same.

And hopefully developers start adding it as an option in game, as its evidently not working in DX10/DX11, and would be tricky to get it to work.
But if devs put it in themselves, it would be guaranteed to work.
on a side note, the game Trine ONLY offers SSAA as it is.

becco · Sep 23, 2009, 07:59 AM

there's no SSAA performance investigation in HD5870 official reviews around internet, this still be a mystery
one or two link could answer

SIrPauly · Sep 23, 2009, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demowhc

If you read the article you will see they said it's a bug with source engine games and that they then tested Crysis Warhead and the image quality was on par with MSAA+AAA and not blurry.. You will also see that they say Nvidia SSAA is even worse and they couldn't even use it for testing because it made whole branches disappear, which is why Nvidia doesn't officialy support it. They even go as far to say that Nvidia SSAA is no good for general use..

Just tried Half-life 2 with x4 SSAA, x16 SSAA, x8SQ and investigated foliage and don't receive what Anand offered. Even if you look at his shot -- the nVidia multi-sampling shot for some odd reason has additional alpha test foliage that is not offered in any of the other shots from ATI or nVidia's super-sampled in that sites example. Something is amiss here and what makes it worse -- the site uses this example to blanket the feature.

SySTaX3r · Sep 23, 2009, 08:07 AM

Looks like you need to manually set negative LoD values using ATi Tray Tools. Works in Crysis apparently, and removes the blur caused by SSAA.

LINK

SIrPauly · Sep 23, 2009, 08:13 AM

That's a great example of a benefit from that site -- PCGH is one of my favorites with Computerbase.de

becco · Sep 23, 2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SySTaX3r

Looks like you need to manually set negative LoD values using ATi Tray Tools. Works in Crysis apparently, and removes the blur caused by SSAA.

LINK

very nice 8xSSAA with LOD: 2

anyone has source for SSAA performance hit?

razor1 · Sep 23, 2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIrPauly

That's really blurry and looks like they're not adding any negative lod to compensate.

Yep you have to adjust the lod levels to decrease the blur.

SIrPauly · Sep 23, 2009, 09:38 AM

That's not a problem at all to me -- as long as there is a tool to add negative lod -- which there is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCGH

SSAA in games
In comparison to the internal Oversampling, which can be forced on Geforce graphics cards with the tool Nhancer, the texture LoD is not adjusted with Ati's SSAA. To put it bluntly this means that the amount of AF is not increased. With a third party application like the Ati Tray Tools you can adjust the LoD by hand in order to receive the best texture sharpness. For 2x SSAA we don't recommend any changes yet, but for 4x SSAA you should set the LoD to -1 and for 8x SSAA -2 or -3 are flicker free - depending on the texture content.

-3 is flicker free depending on content -- that's a lot of detail.

venom1969 · Sep 23, 2009, 09:54 AM

Blurry = bug
Branches disappearing = ordered grid SSAA

SIrPauly · Sep 23, 2009, 10:02 AM

The branches are missing with ATI's multi-sampling and super-sampling as well. nVidia's super-sampled foliage detail is very similar to ATI's -- multi-sampling and super-sampling.

Personally investigated the foliage in Half-life 2 and it is virtually the same with multi-sampling and super-sampling -- except cleaner with super-sampling.

jam2k · Sep 23, 2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SySTaX3r

Looks like you need to manually set negative LoD values using ATi Tray Tools. Works in Crysis apparently, and removes the blur caused by SSAA.

LINK

Very interesting, thanks !

caveman-jim · Sep 23, 2009, 10:36 AM

I saw flickering in Unigine Tropics with 8xSSAA applied. Didn't try adjusting LOD yet.

AlexV · Sep 23, 2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venom1969

Blurry = bug
Branches disappearing = ordered grid SSAA

Ugh no and no. Twice in a row even, good job kind sir!

jam2k · Sep 23, 2009, 10:46 AM

This just looks amazing:

8x SSAA/16:1 AF, LOD -2 (manuell angepasst)

acroig · Sep 23, 2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SySTaX3r

Looks like you need to manually set negative LoD values using ATi Tray Tools. Works in Crysis apparently, and removes the blur caused by SSAA.

LINK

So ATI Tray Tools works with the 5000 series? Awesome!

Sound_Card · Sep 23, 2009, 11:08 AM

I'm thinking ATi is going to auto adjust the LOD when SS is engaged in future driver revisions. I'm just glad we have it finally.

jam2k · Sep 23, 2009, 02:27 PM

Yep:

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyre

The negative LOD thing ... will be taken care of in a future driver(TM). As they are still tweaking things.

Link

sireric · Sep 23, 2009, 05:31 PM

The blurriness appears to only happen on HL2:EP2. We are investigating. Other titles are fine.

Sound_Card · Sep 23, 2009, 05:35 PM

I wonder if caveman can do a in depth testing on SSAA on various games, investigating the quality and performance across several resolutions, and samples.

koralis · Sep 24, 2009, 10:55 AM

What's interesting about the comparison link of MSAA vs SGSSA LOD 0 vs SGSSA LOD -2 is that MSAA has less detail than the -2 section when you're looking at the road about 15 ft out. It didn't seem too bad until you go to the -2 and notice how much detail isn't there.

I'm assuming that MSAA with LOD -2 would have the same effect, more or less? Why isn't that adjustment in CC if it improves things that much??

demowhc · Sep 24, 2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIrPauly

Just tried Half-life 2 with x4 SSAA, x16 SSAA, x8SQ and investigated foliage and don't receive what Anand offered. Even if you look at his shot -- the nVidia multi-sampling shot for some odd reason has additional alpha test foliage that is not offered in any of the other shots from ATI or nVidia's super-sampled in that sites example. Something is amiss here and what makes it worse -- the site uses this example to blanket the feature.

good pick up, the branches are missing on the ATi MSAA shots aswell, how did anandtech not notice this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by koralis

What's interesting about the comparison link of MSAA vs SGSSA LOD 0 vs SGSSA LOD -2 is that MSAA has less detail than the -2 section when you're looking at the road about 15 ft out. It didn't seem too bad until you go to the -2 and notice how much detail isn't there.

I'm assuming that MSAA with LOD -2 would have the same effect, more or less? Why isn't that adjustment in CC if it improves things that much??

I think super sampling gives texture filtering as a bonus (? correct me if I'm wrong) and texture filtering like AF doesn't work in Crysis on surfaces with POM (parallax occlusion mapping) In that screenshot you are now seeing texture filtered Crysis POM surfaces, looks great doesnt it.

Sound_Card · Sep 24, 2009, 11:11 AM

Super Sample does not filter Textures, but it does correct aliasing on textures.

caveman-jim · Sep 24, 2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sound_Card

I wonder if caveman can do a in depth testing on SSAA on various games, investigating the quality and performance across several resolutions, and samples.

I can and am taking suggestions for criteria that the community would like to see.

SIrPauly · Sep 24, 2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koralis

What's interesting about the comparison link of MSAA vs SGSSA LOD 0 vs SGSSA LOD -2 is that MSAA has less detail than the -2 section when you're looking at the road about 15 ft out. It didn't seem too bad until you go to the -2 and notice how much detail isn't there.

I'm assuming that MSAA with LOD -2 would have the same effect, more or less? Why isn't that adjustment in CC if it improves things that much??

You have to be careful with static shots because more detail doesn't instantly mean a superior image. The key to some is a moving 3d environment to help gauge image quality to some degree.

With a quality super-sampled one may add additional negative lod to add wonderful detail without the expense of added noise - flickering/shimmering type eye-soars. If you try to add a lot of negative lod to just conventional multi-sampling -- the moving experience would be a shimmering mess at times but with a quality super-sampled -- very clean while moving, one may imagine, in that example.

SIrPauly · Sep 24, 2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demowhc

good pick up, the branches are missing on the ATi MSAA shots aswell, how did anandtech not notice this?

I think super sampling gives texture filtering as a bonus (? correct me if I'm wrong) and texture filtering like AF doesn't work in Crysis on surfaces with POM (parallax occlusion mapping) In that screenshot you are now seeing texture filtered Crysis POM surfaces, looks great doesnt it.

Things like certain shadow texture aliasing, moire, specular, shader -- even transparent alpha tests and blends -- to name some quick examples. Super-sampled is what I called the "cleaner' or 'fixer' -- in a world full of benches in the 100-200's -- it's nice to see super-sampled back to help do some of the cleaning. And a nice bonus for CrossFire -- where it may be out of reach in a specific title with one GPU -- CrossFire should shine much more.

It's not sexy -- will not win any benches -- but if you have spare performance and a title that it may enhance -- so great to have this flexibility.

becco · Sep 24, 2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caveman-jim

I can and am taking suggestions for criteria that the community would like to see.

SSAA in game compatibility
SSAA image quality
SSAA performance investigation

Sep 23, 2009, 06:06 AM	#1	Advertisement (Guests Only) Login or Register to remove this ad
becco Elliot Swan Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: in its right place Posts: 1,662	HD5800 SuperSample AA, why it's blurry? Taken from Anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3643&p=14 8xMSAA new ATI's 8xSSAA __________________ My YouTube Channel Follow me on Twitter

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Sep 23, 2009, 06:17 AM	#2
Gandalfthewhite ATI WHORE Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Middle Earth also known as AZ Posts: 8,776	its the nature of SSAA when you do it on EVERYTHING. textures included __________________ Main rig: look at system spec tab Secondary rig: Chieftec dragon\|ABIT AT8\|Amd opteron 165 @ 2.025ghz\|zalman CNPS 9500\| 2 GB Mushkin DDR\|2x120gb WD hds\|16x Benq DVDRW \| Sapphire 3450\|dual boot winxp pro and vista ultimate 32bit HOURGLASS = most appropriate named ICON/CURSOR in the Windows world :-) In a dank corner of ATI central, the carpet covered with corn flakes, the faint sound of clicking can be heard........Click......click, click............as the fate of the graphics world and the future of the human race hangs in the balance. I know....I know........Keep my day job :-)- catcather

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Sep 23, 2009, 06:41 AM	#3
SIrPauly Did someone say, RGSSAA? Join Date: May 2001 Location: New England Posts: 9,579	That's really blurry and looks like they're not adding any negative lod to compensate. __________________ *Really enjoy 3d gaming flexibility; a gamer's best friend!*

Sep 23, 2009, 06:50 AM	#4
demowhc Rage3D Scrub Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 2,846	If you read the article you will see they said it's a bug with source engine games and that they then tested Crysis Warhead and the image quality was on par with MSAA+AAA and not blurry.. You will also see that they say Nvidia SSAA is even worse and they couldn't even use it for testing because it made whole branches disappear, which is why Nvidia doesn't officialy support it. They even go as far to say that Nvidia SSAA is no good for general use.. __________________ _________________________ Last edited by demowhc : Sep 23, 2009 at 06:55 AM.

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Sep 23, 2009, 07:45 AM	#5
jolle Hipster Dufus Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 5,015	It´s awesome they´re including official SSAA support either way. Maybe NV will get around and do the same. And hopefully developers start adding it as an option in game, as its evidently not working in DX10/DX11, and would be tricky to get it to work. But if devs put it in themselves, it would be guaranteed to work. on a side note, the game Trine ONLY offers SSAA as it is. __________________ you jump out of that plane and that parachute doesnt open, the helmet is now wearing YOU for protection. -JS

Sep 23, 2009, 07:59 AM	#6
becco Elliot Swan Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: in its right place Posts: 1,662	there's no SSAA performance investigation in HD5870 official reviews around internet, this still be a mystery one or two link could answer __________________ My YouTube Channel Follow me on Twitter

Sep 23, 2009, 08:07 AM	#8
SySTaX3r Radeon HD 4830 Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 166	Looks like you need to manually set negative LoD values using ATi Tray Tools. Works in Crysis apparently, and removes the blur caused by SSAA. LINK __________________ C2DQ6600 @ 3.5 / 8Gig DDR2 / Rampage Formula / HD4870X2 / BenQ FP241VW 24" / X-Fi Fatality / Logitech Z5500 / Tt 1200Watt PSU / 4X WD Raptor150 RAI0 0 / Vista64 SP2 Last edited by SySTaX3r : Sep 23, 2009 at 08:11 AM.

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Sep 23, 2009, 08:13 AM	#9
SIrPauly Did someone say, RGSSAA? Join Date: May 2001 Location: New England Posts: 9,579	That's a great example of a benefit from that site -- PCGH is one of my favorites with Computerbase.de __________________ *Really enjoy 3d gaming flexibility; a gamer's best friend!*

Sep 23, 2009, 09:54 AM	#13
venom1969 Radeon HD 4830 Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 193	Blurry = bug Branches disappearing = ordered grid SSAA __________________ E6600 \| Thermalright Ultra Extreme \| Asus Rampage Formula \| 4GB GSkill F2-8000 \| HD4870 CF \| Corsair HX620 \| Pioneer DVR-111D \| WD Raptor X Seagate Hitachi HDD \| 2001FP \| 3007WFP \| MX1000 \| Z5400 \| P180 Dell 640M \| T7200 \| 1Gb DDR2 \| 60Gb 4200rpm

Sep 23, 2009, 10:02 AM	#14
SIrPauly Did someone say, RGSSAA? Join Date: May 2001 Location: New England Posts: 9,579	The branches are missing with ATI's multi-sampling and super-sampling as well. nVidia's super-sampled foliage detail is very similar to ATI's -- multi-sampling and super-sampling. Personally investigated the foliage in Half-life 2 and it is virtually the same with multi-sampling and super-sampling -- except cleaner with super-sampling. __________________ *Really enjoy 3d gaming flexibility; a gamer's best friend!*

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Sep 23, 2009, 10:36 AM	#16
caveman-jim Rage3D Technical Writer Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 29,060	I saw flickering in Unigine Tropics with 8xSSAA applied. Didn't try adjusting LOD yet.

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Sep 23, 2009, 10:46 AM	#18
jam2k Cozumel Island Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,020	This just looks amazing: 8x SSAA/16:1 AF, LOD -2 (manuell angepasst)

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Sep 23, 2009, 05:31 PM	#22
sireric ATI Guru Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bay Area, CA. Posts: 1,923	The blurriness appears to only happen on HL2:EP2. We are investigating. Other titles are fine.

Sep 24, 2009, 10:55 AM	#24
koralis Radeon HD 4830 Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 104	What's interesting about the comparison link of MSAA vs SGSSA LOD 0 vs SGSSA LOD -2 is that MSAA has less detail than the -2 section when you're looking at the road about 15 ft out. It didn't seem too bad until you go to the -2 and notice how much detail isn't there. I'm assuming that MSAA with LOD -2 would have the same effect, more or less? Why isn't that adjustment in CC if it improves things that much??

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