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Old May 8, 2012, 12:23 PM   #31
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pixie69
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Is there no mental health training in the US for cops? With the amount of service those guys had they must have encountered people on drugs or with mental health issues before. I don't see why violence is deployed as a tactical option at all. 7 years I've being doing this job in London and never had to raise a hand to anyone. Theres times I'd have loved to admittedly, but in doing so you only fail those who trust you to do the job right.

The guy isn't obviously a threat to anyone there. Just restrain him and arrest if need be. I'll bet that fat ass Manny Ramos threatens and beats him because theres no way he would get anywhere in a foot chase. The other thing they don't seem to anything about is positional asphyxia. If you have someone face down on the pavement and your putting pressure on a specific part of their back you can easily kill them. They will be unable to breath. This is day 3 stuff, it really is. When he's on the ground they deploy taser? To what end? He was as good as restrained. That element is torture by any other name.

Scum like this will continue to be employed as long as colleagues remain silent. That is the way you'll end this.
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Old May 8, 2012, 12:26 PM   #32
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we can't do anything. the cops don't have to protect us anymore. they can get away with anything.

even the cops i dealt with when my neighbors vandalized my property and had a meth lab in their garage acted inappropriately. one of my neighbor's cars had an atheist symbol on it. the cops were joking about how atheists don't know how to raise kids because you can't "be smart" without god. they talked about how atheists were the dumbest "race" and "dumber 'n those folks in north tulsa" (north tulsa is primarily black).

when they came back and broke my skylight sunday, the same police officer responded with the same backup to re-arrest my neighbors. the same comments were said even louder in front of everyone and they ignored everything my wife said and called her 'little lady' twice. how can you act like that? how can backwards good ole boys be police?

i am terrified to express my beliefs now. if i had the same symbol on my car, would they even have arrested the people? would they have searched the house to find a meth lab? all of the guns? would they even respond to the call to arrest these people if they knew i was an atheist too?
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Old May 8, 2012, 12:31 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by curio View Post
DA charged one officer with 2nd degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. Another officer was charged with involuntary manslaughter and excessive force under color of authority.
While this does surprise me. I applaud the DA for pursing charges and I do sincerely hope they are brought to justice.
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Old May 8, 2012, 12:34 PM   #34
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They may have been had badges but that ain't policing in any format. This is a clear case of stupid @ssh0les in a uniform. I have had multiple encounters with the mentally ill and every time it was clear by their behavior that they had mental illness. Failure to see this is just bad policing.. Makes me sad for the guy, and his last moments must have been hell.

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Old May 8, 2012, 12:35 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by sittal View Post
we can't do anything. the cops don't have to protect us anymore. they can get away with anything.

editing post - give me a minute
Don't have to protect us? Their job was never to protect We The People.

This comes back to SCOTUS ruling on Warren v. DC and other similar cases.
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Old May 8, 2012, 12:42 PM   #36
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There was one thing I noticed about the first cop (Ramos), he was calm and nice till his buddy came in the frame. Then he went full retard and got extremely aggressive and that's when **** hit the fan.

This angers me.
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Old May 8, 2012, 12:49 PM   #37
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I remember when this happened last year. You can see a facial photo of him in the hospital:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:03 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mahjik View Post
I remember when this happened last year. You can see a facial photo of him in the hospital:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas
Great link and truly unfortunate tragedy.

However, that link led me to stumble upon the following list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

Even more sad
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:05 PM   #39
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With cell phones with good quality cameras and hd video. These folks can't hide anymore. It's us against them. I realize now they'll do everything in their power to make them look good and bag arrests Unjustified. I'm sure if there was no video for this, the cops would have just left him there.
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:13 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
With cell phones with good quality cameras and hd video. These folks can't hide anymore. It's us against them. I realize now they'll do everything in their power to make them look good and bag arrests Unjustified. I'm sure if there was no video for this, the cops would have just left him there.
If you read the list I linked to, there are many situations which call for deadly force. One of the stories was some dude stabbing another guy and refusing to comply, apparently he had stabbed the victim 157 times !!! Cops shot him for failure to comply. Something like that, I can live with.

But there are many situations where a guy who is unarmed or an innocent bystander ends up being shot by someone who is a bit more trigger-happy.

I know what I have personally experienced and I know what I have seen and read and I still feel that cops are trying to do their jobs. My issue is with the lack of oversight in any police department. They basically have to be caught completely red-handed with no possible excuse to actually be charged with even a minor offense. That is not justice.
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:19 PM   #41
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he had his hands in the ****ing air, he was no threat at all, none. No shirt to hide a weapon, his hands were clear. And they hit him in the head with the baton. WHAT THE FARK? RCMP pound it into recruits that you are NEVER EVER to strike anyone in the head except for life threatening incidents. There was nothing in my trained eye that dictated that level of a response. And for the love of the creator when you hear "I'm sorry, I'm sorry please help me" you need to stop and look at what you are doing. Wiping tears out of my eyes, gonna go hug my cat.
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:19 PM   #42
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The fact that both the public and police carry guns increases the risk dramatically. I know the right to bear arms is popular amongst certain sections but it does raise the stakes when the police and public come into conflict. I'll bet theres a lot of these people shot out of a sense of self preservation.
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:26 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
With cell phones with good quality cameras and hd video. These folks can't hide anymore. It's us against them. I realize now they'll do everything in their power to make them look good and bag arrests Unjustified. I'm sure if there was no video for this, the cops would have just left him there.
Seattle appears to be one of the next to require, or at least launch a program start, officers to wear cameras. While I think there are privacy involved here (for the public, not the officers), I think those can be mitigated. Police unions fighting this should focus on eliminating the privacy issues rather than fight the program itself. Nobody benefits from bad cops, not even the unions that protect them.
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:31 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Fat_Daddy_Cool View Post
he had his hands in the ****ing air, he was no threat at all, none. No shirt to hide a weapon, his hands were clear. And they hit him in the head with the baton. WHAT THE FARK? RCMP pound it into recruits that you are NEVER EVER to strike anyone in the head except for life threatening incidents. There was nothing in my trained eye that dictated that level of a response. And for the love of the creator when you hear "I'm sorry, I'm sorry please help me" you need to stop and look at what you are doing. Wiping tears out of my eyes, gonna go hug my cat.
QFT. This was cold-blooded murder to me.
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:55 PM   #45
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Seattle appears to be one of the next to require, or at least launch a program start, officers to wear cameras. While I think there are privacy involved here (for the public, not the officers), I think those can be mitigated. Police unions fighting this should focus on eliminating the privacy issues rather than fight the program itself. Nobody benefits from bad cops, not even the unions that protect them.
If you're in a public place there is no privacy. However in one's home or something that changes things a bit.

The unions do benefit, who do you think will keep shoveling money at them to keep their people on the streets hm? I'm not sure about this but I'm guessing that lawsuits are generally aimed at the department and the individual(s) who were the problem, not the unions defending them.
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Old May 8, 2012, 03:58 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Lupine View Post
Seattle appears to be one of the next to require, or at least launch a program start, officers to wear cameras. While I think there are privacy involved here (for the public, not the officers), I think those can be mitigated. Police unions fighting this should focus on eliminating the privacy issues rather than fight the program itself. Nobody benefits from bad cops, not even the unions that protect them.

We've been using body worn cameras like that in London for a while. They're a great tool, especially for domestics. You essentially can take a jury to the call with you. They see what you see. In terms of impact at court its fantastic. No amount of description can relay what video can. Video is an accurate record thats indisputable. Furthermore it gives police a fair degree of protection. The risks can be made clear and subsequent actions are simple to justify, if you fly straight.

Fail to stop cases where you haul the suspect out of a car. Bingo, direct evidence of who the driver was.

Suspect makes a significant comment during arrest, great, its all recorded and theres no argument of whether it was said or not.
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Old May 8, 2012, 04:19 PM   #47
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I ****ing hate U.S. cops. 90% of them are pieces of **** like these two wastes of human lives. Most of them are nothing but closet pedos, adulterers and usually pretty much a pussy on their own. Them ****ing tasers, guns and endless backup are giving them a lot more courage than they ever would have.

They love legalized murder too.
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Old May 8, 2012, 05:18 PM   #48
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I understand the need for tasers... I don't understand how you can be pumping someone full of juice and expect them to comply implicitly with your demands while you continue to shock and cause involuntary movements.

That being said... how is someone to lay down, or put their arms behind their back when you've got one guy on his back, and the other in a horse collar? The 2nd cop (or 1st) has his arm between the victim's arm and torso...

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Old May 8, 2012, 05:56 PM   #49
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Said it before, saying it again, I work alongside cops every day. Many of them act like three year olds who have zero communication skills with the public. They treat me normally because I'm a public worker (one of their own?). I wouldn't trust them to arrest a rolling baked potato without putting 3 rounds in it. It blows my mind how they get hired. Unfortunately in law enforcement, from what I've seen, the good are the minority, the bad are the middle ground, and the really bad are a minority. Things like this happen only rarely because they're basically a pack of hungry dogs on a leash the intelligent officers carry, and every so often one gets loose. Most of the time they merely snap at people (give them BS tickets, harassment, etc).
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Old May 8, 2012, 05:58 PM   #50
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Actually watched the video (didn't have time last night).

I'm pulling my original statement. Those pigs were just brutal, and deserve to face manslaughter/murder charges. There's no way that can be justified.

But, such is the world we live in.
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Old May 8, 2012, 06:09 PM   #51
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The problem here is that I doubt the cops knew they were dealing with a mentally ill schizo, and "non-compliance" and "cops" just doesn't go well together. I'm not defending the cops beating him to death, but I can see how easily something like this could happen. Definitely not appropriate that a cop threatens a suspect though.
So who is worse "a mentally ill schizo" or "power tripping murderers"

I could use simple math and say there are two ARMED police officers and a shirtless man with no weapons...

Does it really make sense when police are supposed to be evaluated, trained and certified so that we can feel safe when they are walking around wielding powerful weapons like batons, guns, mace, shot guns, stun/shock guns, etc?
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Old May 8, 2012, 06:26 PM   #52
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If you read the list I linked to, there are many situations which call for deadly force. One of the stories was some dude stabbing another guy and refusing to comply, apparently he had stabbed the victim 157 times !!! Cops shot him for failure to comply. Something like that, I can live with.

But there are many situations where a guy who is unarmed or an innocent bystander ends up being shot by someone who is a bit more trigger-happy.

I know what I have personally experienced and I know what I have seen and read and I still feel that cops are trying to do their jobs. My issue is with the lack of oversight in any police department. They basically have to be caught completely red-handed with no possible excuse to actually be charged with even a minor offense. That is not justice.
Something else that bothers me..

There was an instance in Eugene Oregon not too long ago. There was a guy who was wanted on Federal charges. The Fed Marshals were after him even. He was in a parking lot at some store (I think like BiMart or something) driving his van. LEOs move on him, and he panicks a bit backs up and avoids getting blocked in by the LEOs vehicles.

Eventually he gets boxed in and he is being rammed from the rear by a LEO SUV. Keep in mind the suspect at this point has no control over his vehicle. Just about every LEO outside of their vehicles unloads their weapons on the guy. Kills him right there.

Their justification. Was that he was attempting to use his vehicle to run over LEOs. The stores security cameras on the parking lot show a much different story. Ok, so, they were really justified to unload on the guy who was simply trying to run.

What bothers me the most. With all these officers converging fire on the single suspect in a parking lot in mid-day. There were an untold amount of innocent people around in the lot who COULD have been hit.

What in the **** were these guys thinking unloading on him with that much of the public around, not knowing where their shots are going to end up. Seriously.. They gave ZERO thought to all the innocent people around there.

But, they caught their man. **** all those other people.

Edit : My bad, Medford Oregon

http://www.kval.com/news/local/Feder...136793583.html
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Old May 8, 2012, 06:45 PM   #53
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I hope the fatty looking tough-guy cop that was talking about his fists of fury gets what he deserves. (Not likely to happen though) Everything that guy did/said seemed unprofessional. Maybe he was just having a bad day, but he's the reason that whole thing got out of control.
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Old May 8, 2012, 07:12 PM   #54
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Normally when I see most police related stuff, I can look with the mind set that if that was me what would I or what could I have done. There are moments where I can see how a mistake can be made and I will defend as there are moment where all of us can make a bad call. This is not a bad call, this is just wrong. Any good police officer would have used minimal violence to get the person to comply. No bull$hit bravado of 'my fists are going to' crap. That statement basically provides that they were bullying a homeless man, real tough of you to threaten a homeless man without a shirt and nothing to us as a weapon. Of course the situation is going to get violent when you threaten violence. This one is really pissing me off
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Old May 8, 2012, 08:09 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Fat_Daddy_Cool View Post
Normally when I see most police related stuff, I can look with the mind set that if that was me what would I or what could I have done. There are moments where I can see how a mistake can be made and I will defend as there are moment where all of us can make a bad call. This is not a bad call, this is just wrong. Any good police officer would have used minimal violence to get the person to comply. No bull$hit bravado of 'my fists are going to' crap. That statement basically provides that they were bullying a homeless man, real tough of you to threaten a homeless man without a shirt and nothing to us as a weapon. Of course the situation is going to get violent when you threaten violence. This one is really pissing me off
If you see the picture of the guy from 2002 and the bloody pulp of his face after from the wikipedia page, it really boggles the mind. The first time I saw his picture I assumed it was a black homeless dude. It took a while for me to understand I was seeing a WHITE guy whose face was completely black from bruising and cuts.
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Old May 8, 2012, 10:42 PM   #56
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I just about lost my dinner:

http://www.pixiq.com/article/shockin...h-with-caution

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“Now you see my fists?” Fullerton police officer Manny Ramos asked Thomas while slipping on a pair of latex gloves.

“Yeah, what about them?” Thomas responded.

“They are getting ready to **** you up,” said Ramos, a burly cop who appears to outweigh Thomas by 100 pounds.

"Well, start punching," Thomas responds, never once displaying any physical aggression towards Ramos.

Moments later, as Thomas is standing while Ramos is ordering him to get on his "****ing knees," Fullerton cop Joseph Wolfe, who is not charged in the case, walks up and starts beating his legs with a baton.

Then Ramos gets into the act and Thomas takes off running, moving out of the frame of the camera.

The camera, operated by a dispatcher at the station, then moves toward the beating, showing Ramos and Fullerton cop Jay Cicinelli on top of Thomas as Thomas repeatedly apologizes and telling them he is unable to breathe.

The cops keep telling him to put his hands behind his back and lay on his stomach, but they are both laying on top of him, making it impossible to even breathe, much less move.

As the video continues, one of the cops can be seen kneeing him.

"Please, I can't breathe," Thomas pleads as the officers keep telling him to put his hands behind his "****ing back."

The cops keep telling him to "relax" to which he responds, "I can't, dude."

More cops eventually arrive and a little more than four minutes into the video, they start tasing him.

And a little after five minutes into the video, as three cops are piled on top of him, beating him, tasing him, one cop looks up at another cop who just arrived on the scene and says, "help us."

At one point he yells out, "Dad, they are killing me."

Even after seven minutes into the video, when six cops are on top of him and all Thomas is doing is crying for his father, they keep telling him to "relax."

Last year, Ron Thomas, a retired Orange County Sheriff's deputy, said the City of Fullerton offered him $900,000 to just go away, which would have allowed the two cops to remain on the force unpunished for killing his son.
I take back the whole thing I said about a few bad apples.

SIX cops, at least, were involved in the murder of this poor bastard and then the department tried to cover it up and buy his dad off, who happened to be a retired deputy. The murderers weren't even placed on leave.

A law HAS to be passed for independent oversight of all our law enforcement. This is ridiculous and apparently we are only hearing about it because his dad refused to be bought out.

Privatizing our prisons and making enforcement purely for profit, sounds like such a utopian idea
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Old May 9, 2012, 12:26 AM   #57
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This thread is horrible.

Edit: Were I that guy's father and knew all this information that has come about, I don't think I could hold myself. I would want blood. This is beyond the level of a pedo or a rapist, this is absolute, cold, disturbed, murder. It brings chills down my spine just to think how terrorized that man must have been.
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Old May 9, 2012, 01:59 AM   #58
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So who is worse "a mentally ill schizo" or "power tripping murderers"

I could use simple math and say there are two ARMED police officers and a shirtless man with no weapons...

Does it really make sense when police are supposed to be evaluated, trained and certified so that we can feel safe when they are walking around wielding powerful weapons like batons, guns, mace, shot guns, stun/shock guns, etc?
Look up one post first.

Still, I can see how it would be difficult to restrain a mentally ill person as a result of (pardon the non-pc) "retard strength". But what those cops did was completely out of line.
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Old May 9, 2012, 06:55 AM   #59
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I would kill those cops if I could.
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Old May 9, 2012, 07:21 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzieBloke View Post
Look up one post first.

Still, I can see how it would be difficult to restrain a mentally ill person as a result of (pardon the non-pc) "retard strength". But what those cops did was completely out of line.
He was not fighting them back. They were walloping him and sitting on top of him and saying he was not complying because he wouldn't put his arms behind his back. But he couldn't, his throat and chest were being crushed, his face was being bashed in and 2 fat ****s were sitting on top of him so he was unable to move.

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