Free anti virus, any good?

junglist1996 · Apr 3, 2012, 11:10 PM

My dad just got a new Lenovo all-in-one PC that comes with Microsoft Security Essentials. How are these "free" anti virus software like MSE and Avast? Or do I need some "real" anti virus?

**shrike126** · Apr 3, 2012, 11:25 PM

I'm quite comfortable with my MSE. Easily as satisfied with it as I was back when I was using Kapersky.

Talon_262 · Apr 3, 2012, 11:50 PM

MSE is just as good as most of the popular paid antivirus software, it's relatively light on system resources, and absolutely free.

I used to run NOD32 (and Avast Home, before that) on my machines until MSE came out and matured a bit; since then, MSE is the only antivirus I use and install on machines I work on for others.

Swiftdeathz · Apr 4, 2012, 11:27 AM

I started to use MSE and so far so good *crosses fingers*

Before that I used to run Antivir and Avast, both are good but not as light on resources as MSE, which is why I switched to it.

junglist1996 · Apr 4, 2012, 11:59 AM

Cool, thanks for the feedbacks. Guess I'll switch to MSE myself when my Norton subscription runs out.

Hatecrime69 · Apr 4, 2012, 07:43 PM

Using mse here too, only problem i had was a rather nasty piece of spyware/adware went out of its way to break it, requiring an uninstall/reinstall.. But that's likely possible to happen to any antiviral I guess

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

metroidfox · Apr 4, 2012, 07:46 PM

Yeah, MSSE is really solid.

VW_Factor · Apr 4, 2012, 08:08 PM

Another for MSE. Light solid product, like AntiVir, before the ads.

AntiVir is still a good free product, just have to mod the registry to keep the ****ing ads from popping up.

Dr. Zhivago · Apr 4, 2012, 08:33 PM

Another vote for MSE here. Been using it for years now. I NEVER get calls from clients about viruses. Kinda makes me regret installing it for them...

Sasquach · Apr 4, 2012, 09:33 PM

Used it on my gaming PC, no problems.
Im switching all my PC's to it.

My laptop has been using Trend Micro Internet Security for awhile, and my subscription expires in a couple days, so im ready to jump ship.
This thing needs some free resources (well it needs reinstall of windows but im not going out of my way to do that) and TMIS takes up quite a bit.

Bires · Apr 5, 2012, 09:36 AM

I'm going to switch to MSE (on all your recommendations).

CurrentlyPissed · Apr 5, 2012, 10:14 AM

I use Avira, love it.

Hidavi · Apr 5, 2012, 11:07 AM

MSE. still not sure why so many techs are pushing out Symantec...

**G.I.BRO** · Apr 5, 2012, 01:24 PM

Long time Kaspersky user and i finally ditched it for MSE and or Avast. I personally run both of those at home without taking too much of a hit. If i had to choose one, id probably stick with Avast. Just seems more complete and seems to detect faster.

**Pr()ZaC** · Apr 5, 2012, 07:00 PM

Avira (if ads don't bother you) and MSE 4 (Beta).

sittal · Apr 5, 2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hidavi

MSE. still not sure why so many techs are pushing out Symantec...

they (or the store they work at) get paid to.

CR2500 · Apr 5, 2012, 10:59 PM

I think a MSE + Malwarebytes combo works very effectively.. new Malwarebytes has nice things ive never seen in other programs before, like 'chameleon' which prevents it from getting disabled or removed by a virus.

kakarot · Apr 6, 2012, 09:09 AM

MSE is good enough if your browsing habits are good but I still prefer something like NIS. Keys for paid security apps are fairly cheap on ebay, no reason not to have the added protection/convenience imho

Pornstar Yard Gnom · Apr 6, 2012, 04:48 PM

I would say this, I use avast and install avast on other peoples computers as those that have MSE can fall trap to the fake MSE popup crap and infect themselves with crap. I did a side by side test of a website a while back that I knew had the virus. MSE didn't stop it, avast did.

I've fixed this 3 times on 3 different peoples computers(easy fix but still annoying)

I tell them, if anything pops up that does NOT look like avast. Do not hit ok/yes or whatever it wants you to do.

m3talc0re · Apr 6, 2012, 04:53 PM

Been using MSE for years now here also. Solid program. I will NEVER ever in a million years put another thing from Norton on my computer. Every single time I did, I ended up having problems that forced me into having to do a fresh install of XP (i'm on win7 now). I use MSE, Malwarebytes and Windows Firewall. It takes some configuring, but you can enable outbound filtering with WF...

kakarot · Apr 8, 2012, 10:39 AM

Norton 2010 and newer is like night and day from previous versions. It is also far lighter on resources than MSE and it covers far more.
Superantispyware is also a good freebie for spyware scans

Swiftdeathz · Apr 8, 2012, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m3talc0re

I use MSE, Malwarebytes and Windows Firewall. It takes some configuring, but you can enable outbound filtering with WF...

Or you could use something like Windows 7 Firewall Control which there is a free version of and it uses the built-in Windows Firewall backend and has outgoing filtering and rule based for applications.

Shadowless · Apr 8, 2012, 04:14 PM

I use MSE on my laptop, and Kaspersky (till the license runs out) on my desktop. I have no qualms rolling out MSE.

I use Kaspersky at the office because it allows me to monitor all my workstations and push out new policies and updates via AD, otherwise they'd all be running MSE too.

badboy · Apr 19, 2012, 02:38 AM

bots recommending real software

Hidavi · Apr 28, 2012, 06:57 AM

Where I work now, they only do Symantec Endpoint Security, which I'm not sure I care for.

But there are so many security measures in place, that it looks like everything else picks up a lot of the slack.

mabran · May 1, 2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hidavi

MSE. still not sure why so many techs are pushing out Symantec...

For home users Norton especially, but others as well , if anyone pays for AV they are getting ripped off when there are more than capable free alternatives available.

Norton, AVG and others sell through fear tactics and make actually using the PC a chore because of the extra "cough" security they provide making doing anything on a network a major pain in the rectum for the most basic tasks.

MSE is fine combined with the windows firewall behind a NAT router, makes one pretty darn safe. What they can't block against is user stupidity and sadly that is a larger problem than any malware in the wild and no software can block against it.

mabran · May 1, 2012, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hidavi

Where I work now, they only do Symantec Endpoint Security, which I'm not sure I care for.

But there are so many security measures in place, that it looks like everything else picks up a lot of the slack.

Symantec corporate software is much better overall, but is designed for the business enviroment and as such designed for managment practices in mind.

I still don't like it and if MS supported MSE in a corporate environment I would switch my enterprise clients in a heartbeat.

HyperNovae · May 4, 2012, 06:40 PM

Another vote for MSE, been using it since I reinstalled win7. I was owned by a serious malware/virus. Haven't been bothered since using MSE.

Talon_262 · May 4, 2012, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mabran

Symantec corporate software is much better overall, but is designed for the business enviroment and as such designed for managment practices in mind.

I still don't like it and if MS supported MSE in a corporate environment I would switch my enterprise clients in a heartbeat.

Umm, they do, it's called Forefront Endpoint Protection and it's pay-per-seat; it's what the free MSE is based off of nowadays and looks and works almost the same under-the-hood, AFAIK.

mabran · May 4, 2012, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talon_262

Umm, they do, it's called Forefront Endpoint Protection and it's pay-per-seat; it's what the free MSE is based off of nowadays and looks and works almost the same under-the-hood, AFAIK.

I know that but seeing as SUS will push MSE updates, a free solution would be great, especially for smaller companies. Although MSE does work great in a terminal server build.

Apr 3, 2012, 11:10 PM	#1	Advertisement (Guests Only) Login or Register to remove this ad
junglist1996 Reload selecta! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Koncrete jungle Posts: 2,186	Free anti virus, any good? My dad just got a new Lenovo all-in-one PC that comes with Microsoft Security Essentials. How are these "free" anti virus software like MSE and Avast? Or do I need some "real" anti virus? __________________ Systems: <== See System Specs \| \| \| \| Would you like to help cure cancer with your uber rig? Join the fold at Team Rage 3D today!

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Motherboard	Gigabyte X79-UD7
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shrike126's System Specs
Motherboard	Gateway FX6840
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Operating System	Microsoft Windows 7

Apr 3, 2012, 11:50 PM	#3
Talon_262 Lurker Supreme Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1,199	MSE is just as good as most of the popular paid antivirus software, it's relatively light on system resources, and absolutely free. I used to run NOD32 (and Avast Home, before that) on my machines until MSE came out and matured a bit; since then, MSE is the only antivirus I use and install on machines I work on for others. __________________ Ad aspera per astra ------------------------------------------------ Post counts don't mean anything to me...I go for quality, not quantity ;)

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Hard-Drives	120GB Kingston SSDNow SATA3 SSD, 2TB Toshiba SATA3 HDD
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Input Devices	Saitek Eclipse Keyboard, Logitech G500 Mouse
Operating System	Windows 8 Pro with Media Center (64-bit)

Apr 4, 2012, 11:27 AM	#4
Swiftdeathz 7870 CFX Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: NYC/NJ, USA Posts: 479	I started to use MSE and so far so good crosses fingers Before that I used to run Antivir and Avast, both are good but not as light on resources as MSE, which is why I switched to it. __________________ Intel i5 3570k \|\| Sapphire HD 7870 OC CrossFireX \|\| Asrock Z77 Extreme4 \|\| 8GB DDR3 G.SKILL \|\| Seasonic X750 Intel Core2Duo E8400 \|\| PowerColor HD 5450 \|\| Gigabyte P35-DS3L \|\| 4GB DDR2 G.SKILL \|\| Enermax 431W Folding@Home...

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Hard-Drives	Crucial M4 128GB SATA3 \| Seagate 2TB SATA3
Optical Drives	Asus BC-12B1ST BD-ROM
Power Supply	Seasonic X750
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Input Devices	Logitech keyboard \| Logitech MX510 mouse

Apr 4, 2012, 11:59 AM	#5
junglist1996 Reload selecta! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Koncrete jungle Posts: 2,186	Cool, thanks for the feedbacks. Guess I'll switch to MSE myself when my Norton subscription runs out. __________________ Systems: <== See System Specs \| \| \| \| Would you like to help cure cancer with your uber rig? Join the fold at Team Rage 3D today!

Apr 4, 2012, 07:43 PM	#6
Hatecrime69 Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 1,520	Using mse here too, only problem i had was a rather nasty piece of spyware/adware went out of its way to break it, requiring an uninstall/reinstall.. But that's likely possible to happen to any antiviral I guess Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

Hatecrime69's System Specs
Motherboard	Biostar TA990FXE
CPU	AMD Phenom II x6 1100t
Graphics	XFX Radeon 5850
Memory	AMD 2x4gb ddr3-1600
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Soundcard & Speakers	X-fi Xtremegamer Fatality & Logitech Z-540
Hard-Drives	Western Digital 160/500gb Sata
Optical Drives	Samsung blu-ray & dvd/cd burner
Power Supply	Thermaltake Toughpower XT 750w
Case	CoolerMaster Centurion 534
Input Devices	Logitech Classic Keyboard 200 & G13, Razer Deathaddler
Operating System	Windows 7 x64 Premium

metroidfox's System Specs
CPU	Core i7 740
Graphics	Radeon HD5850m
Memory	8 Gb
Soundcard & Speakers	M-Audio IE-30/ Sennheiser HD 555/ Klipsch Pro Media 2.1
Hard-Drives	Seagate Barracuda 1 Tb
Input Devices	Microsoft SideWinder X5
Operating System	Windows 7 Home Premium x64
Extra Info	Logitech Chillstream

VW_Factor's System Specs
Motherboard	ABit VH6-II
CPU	PIII - 1GHz
Graphics	Geforce2
Memory	256M PC100
Cooling Solution	Heatsinks
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Soundcard & Speakers	Kinyo
Hard-Drives	20G Maxtor
Optical Drives	CD Burner
Power Supply	300Watt Generic
Case	AT Compatible
Input Devices	Keyboard, Mouse, Microphone
Operating System	Windows ME
Extra Info	FTW!

Apr 4, 2012, 08:33 PM	#9
Dr. Zhivago Sound: Serious Business Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 6,805	Another vote for MSE here. Been using it for years now. I NEVER get calls from clients about viruses. Kinda makes me regret installing it for them... __________________ So basically I've learned today that more people run Windows 8 and Vista combined than run Mac OSX. OSX is a failure. - Elysian

Dr. Zhivago's System Specs
Motherboard	ABIT AT8 32X
CPU	AMD Opteron 165 @2.8GHz
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Soundcard & Speakers	SB Audigy 2 Value w/ 5.1 Surround Setup
Hard-Drives	Hitachi 7K250 250GB SATA X2
Optical Drives	NEC 3540A X2
Power Supply	Hiper TypeR 580 SLi PSU
Case	Antec Nine Hundred
Input Devices	Logitech PS2 Media KB & G5
Operating System	Windows XP MCE 2005
Extra Info	Hauppage WinTV-PVR 500

Apr 4, 2012, 09:33 PM	#10
Sasquach Im da Sastroll. U mad? Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Cowtown Posts: 22,710	Used it on my gaming PC, no problems. Im switching all my PC's to it. My laptop has been using Trend Micro Internet Security for awhile, and my subscription expires in a couple days, so im ready to jump ship. This thing needs some free resources (well it needs reinstall of windows but im not going out of my way to do that) and TMIS takes up quite a bit. __________________ ------The Squachbox------ Gigabyte 3D Aurora 570 full size aluminum chassis PC Power & Cooling Silencer Quad Blue 750watt PSU Zalman CNPS9900LED on AMD Phenom II X4 955 BE @ 3.2ghz Gigabyte GA-MA790FXT-UD5P 4gb Patriot Viper Series Low Latency DDR3 1600 8gb Patriot Gamer 2 series Performance DDR3 1600 Samsung Syncmaster 205BW (21" widescreen) on ATI Radeon HD 5870 (Catalyst 11.1a) Western Digital Caviar Black 500gb 7200RPM SATA Seagate Barracuda 500gb 7200.12 SATA Logitech Z-5300 THX 5.1 surround and Sennheiser PC350 Xense edition on Asus Xonar Xense ---AMD Dragon+ Platform---

Sasquach's System Specs
Motherboard	Gigabyte MA790FXT-UD5P
CPU	AMD PhenomII X4 955 @ 3.2ghz
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Hard-Drives	500gb Seagate Barracuda 7200.12, 500gb Western Digital Caviar Black 7200
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Power Supply	PC Power & Cooling Silencer blue 750w
Case	Gigabyte 3d Aurora
Input Devices	MS Mouse/keyboard, Xbox 360 wireless gamepad, Saitek wireless gamepad
Operating System	Windows 7 64bit
Extra Info	This is the Squachbox

Apr 5, 2012, 09:36 AM	#11
Bires Take Luck! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Mohave Wasteland Posts: 4,552	I'm going to switch to MSE (on all your recommendations). __________________ You're looking at my signature. Your signature may be different. It's common to have computer specs here. My computer? I've put its specs in the box to the left. There are many people on the Rage3D forums. They're very proud of their computers.

Bires's System Specs
Motherboard	Asus P8P67 Pro
CPU	Core i7 2600K (100x43)
Graphics	MSI 660 Ti PE (stock @ 1020/1090)
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Cooling Solution	TT Water 2.0 Performer
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Soundcard & Speakers	X-Fi XG w/ Logitech 640 5.1 and TB Earforce X-52 5.1 headset
Hard-Drives	120GB OCZ Vertex3 SSD(c:), 2x120GB Agility3 RAID0(steam), Seagate .5TB
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Input Devices	LT G15 v2 KB, LT MX518 mouse
Operating System	Windows 7 64bit
Extra Info	HP dm1z happy lappy.

CurrentlyPissed's System Specs
Motherboard	ASRock Fatal1ty Z77 Pro
CPU	Intel i7 3770k @ 5.1@1.4v
Graphics	EVGA SuperClocked Titan GTX 6GB @ 1149/7350
Memory	16GB Corsair Dominator GT @ 2133
Cooling Solution	Swiftech Apogee Drive II(With MCP35X), XSPC RX360 Rad, XSPC Dual Bay Resevoir
Display	3x Asus 23" MX239H AH-IPS (5760x1080)
Soundcard & Speakers	Creative Sound Blaster Z - Sennheiser HD600
Hard-Drives	OS: Samsung 840 120GB Games: Samsung 840 PRO 256 Media: Seagate 1TB
Optical Drives	Samsung Optical CD-DVDRW
Power Supply	Corsair AX1200
Case	NZXT Phantom 820
Input Devices	Ducky 9008 G2/Logitech G500
Operating System	Windows 8 64bit Pro

Apr 5, 2012, 11:07 AM	#13
Hidavi 25 and stacking them high Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: THE BIG APPLE Posts: 25,244	MSE. still not sure why so many techs are pushing out Symantec... __________________ *Now Playing:* *Saints Row The Third (PC)* Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective *(3DS)*

Hidavi's System Specs
Motherboard	Qosmio X875
CPU	Intel Core i7 3630QM
Graphics	670m GTX 3GB GDDR5
Memory	12GB DDR3-1066
Display	17.3" 1680x900 LCD Panel
Soundcard & Speakers	Harman/Kardon 4 Speaker SRS
Hard-Drives	Crucial 256GB SATAIII SSD
Optical Drives	16x DVD-RW w/Lightscribe
Power Supply	180W
Case	Toshiba
Operating System	Windows 8 Home Premium x64
Extra Info	So old-skool...

Apr 5, 2012, 01:24 PM	#14
G.I.BRO GNAP! Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Toronto Posts: 26,285	Long time Kaspersky user and i finally ditched it for MSE and or Avast. I personally run both of those at home without taking too much of a hit. If i had to choose one, id probably stick with Avast. Just seems more complete and seems to detect faster. __________________ Sex with four people is foursome. Sex with three people is threesome and Sex with two people is twosome. Now you know why they call you handsome

G.I.BRO's System Specs
Motherboard	Asus Sabretooth 990FX
CPU	AMD 8350 FX
Graphics	670 GTX
Memory	16GB Kingston
Display	Asus PB278
Soundcard & Speakers	2.1 Klipsch
Case	BitFenix Raider
Input Devices	Logitech Wireless K800 & Performance MX
Operating System	WIN8 Pro
Extra Info	Rogers Extreme Cable

Apr 5, 2012, 07:00 PM	#15
Pr()ZaC Banned Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Vandelay Industries Posts: 16,731	Avira (if ads don't bother you) and MSE 4 (Beta).

sittal's System Specs
Motherboard	ASUS M4A89TD
CPU	AMD Phenom II X6 1090T
Graphics	HIS 6950
Memory	16GB G.SKILL Ripjaw
Cooling Solution	COOLER MASTER Hyper N 520
Display	Acer 24"
Soundcard & Speakers	Logitech X-230
Hard-Drives	2TB HITACHI Deskstar
Optical Drives	Sony DVD-+RW
Power Supply	Rosewill 700W
Case	Antec 100
Input Devices	Logitech G500/G510
Operating System	Windows 7 Professional x64

Apr 5, 2012, 10:59 PM	#17
CR2500 Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: IL Posts: 2,038	I think a MSE + Malwarebytes combo works very effectively.. new Malwarebytes has nice things ive never seen in other programs before, like 'chameleon' which prevents it from getting disabled or removed by a virus. __________________

CR2500's System Specs
Motherboard	ASUS P5K Deluxe
CPU	Intel C2D E7500 @ 4.0 Ghz
Graphics	eVGA 8800GTS-320 SC
Memory	Corsair 4GB DDR2-800
Cooling Solution	Thermalright Ultra-120
Display	Acer 22" 1680x1050
Soundcard & Speakers	Logitech Z-4
Hard-Drives	Hitatchi 1TB
Power Supply	PC P&C Silencer 650W
Case	Antec P182
Operating System	Windows 7 Ultimate x64

Apr 6, 2012, 09:09 AM	#18
kakarot Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 3,930	MSE is good enough if your browsing habits are good but I still prefer something like NIS. Keys for paid security apps are fairly cheap on ebay, no reason not to have the added protection/convenience imho

kakarot's System Specs
Motherboard	evga x58 ftw3
CPU	i7 920@4.3
Graphics	xfx 7970be
Memory	12gb corsair
Cooling Solution	corsair h100
Display	dell u3011
Soundcard & Speakers	x-fi titanium fatality
Hard-Drives	80gb ssd & 12tb
Power Supply	antec hc 900w
Case	corsair t600se
Input Devices	g510 & g9x, 360 pad
Operating System	win7hp x64
Extra Info	intel ct nic

Apr 6, 2012, 04:48 PM	#19
Pornstar Yard Gnom Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: A yard Posts: 1,846	I would say this, I use avast and install avast on other peoples computers as those that have MSE can fall trap to the fake MSE popup crap and infect themselves with crap. I did a side by side test of a website a while back that I knew had the virus. MSE didn't stop it, avast did. I've fixed this 3 times on 3 different peoples computers(easy fix but still annoying) I tell them, if anything pops up that does NOT look like avast. Do not hit ok/yes or whatever it wants you to do.

Apr 6, 2012, 04:53 PM	#20
m3talc0re Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Alabama Posts: 1,638	Been using MSE for years now here also. Solid program. I will NEVER ever in a million years put another thing from Norton on my computer. Every single time I did, I ended up having problems that forced me into having to do a fresh install of XP (i'm on win7 now). I use MSE, Malwarebytes and Windows Firewall. It takes some configuring, but you can enable outbound filtering with WF... __________________ "The real hell is your life gone wrong."

m3talc0re's System Specs
Motherboard	Asus Rampage Formula
CPU	Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450
Graphics	eVGA 9800GTX+ 512MB GDDR3 PCIe VIVO
Memory	4x 2gb G.Skill DDR2-800 SDRAM
Display	Samsung SyncMaster 2220WM 22" LCD
Soundcard & Speakers	Creative X-Fi Platinum & Z5500 5.1
Hard-Drives	Western Digital 74GB Raptor SATA & 250GB Caviar SE HDD SATA
Optical Drives	2xBenQ DVD-RW/CD-RW Combo Burners
Power Supply	EnermaX Liberty Modular PSU 600WATT Dual 12v Rails
Case	Cooler Master Stacker (Black with Silver Front)
Input Devices	Logitech G15 (original) keyboard and MX518 mouse
Operating System	Microsoft Windows 7 Professional
Extra Info	Razer eXactMat Mousepad

Apr 8, 2012, 10:39 AM	#21
kakarot Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 3,930	Norton 2010 and newer is like night and day from previous versions. It is also far lighter on resources than MSE and it covers far more. Superantispyware is also a good freebie for spyware scans

Shadowless's System Specs
Motherboard	ASRock Z77 Extreme4
CPU	Intel Core i5 3570K @ 4.0GHz
Graphics	2xRadeon HD 6870 @ 930/1050
Memory	2x8GB Ballistix Sport DDR3 1600
Cooling Solution	Antec Kuhler 620
Display	Acer D241Hbmi 24" LCD
Soundcard & Speakers	Logitech Z-2300 2.1 Speakers
Hard-Drives	128GB Samsung 830 SSD, 320GB Seagate SATA
Optical Drives	Lite-On 16x DVD-RW
Power Supply	Corsair CX750
Case	Fractal Design Define R4
Input Devices	Dell Enhanced USB Keyboard, Logitech M510
Operating System	\Windows 7 Ultimate
Extra Info	Asus Xonar DGX

Apr 19, 2012, 02:38 AM	#24
badboy RIP Paul Gray Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Sweden Posts: 14,267	bots recommending real software __________________ *”Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”* - Albert Einstein *"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."* - Richard Dawkins *"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."* - Ben Franklin *"I'll happily keep risking it and enjoy my life"* - Doozer Luke: "God will make sure that evil gets punished" Jason: "Oh yeah, then explain Europe to me?" - True Blood