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gtguy01
Mar 29, 2003, 07:22 AM
FSAA works in about 80% of games. Here are the games that do not work with FSAA in the latest Catalyst 3.6 drivers. Hopefully ATI will look at this list (edit - they did) and fix their drivers.

FSAA Completely Fails

Longest Journey (Funcom)
Star Wars Racer (LucasArts)
Jeff Gordon XS Racing (ASC Games) **FIXED IN 3.4
Star Monkey (Small Rockets) **FIXED IN 3.4
Ultra Assault (Small Rockets) **FIXED IN 3.4


FSAA Very Poor Performance

F1 2002 **FIXED IN 3.7
Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 2 **FIXED IN 3.6


Graphic Bugs with Anisotropic Filter On

Giants (to test load level 1.4 - The Ripper Nest)
Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed **FIXED IN 3.4
Wheel of Time (Unreal Engine)


Problem with textures with Unreal Engine "Detailed Textures" on

Deus Ex (3rd party fix see http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=1332131564)

Wheel of Time


Game unplayable

Racing Simulation 3 (Ubisoft) **FIXED IN 3.4 but invisible menu
Salt Lake 2002 - won't start

Kruno
Mar 29, 2003, 07:25 AM
Final Fantasy 7/8, Might and Magic 9 -FSAA displays funny background borders

whisper7
Apr 1, 2003, 09:44 PM
NOLF -
Funny text artifacts, especially when AF turned on although the problem is still there with just AA. Weird shadows around edges of screen as well, looks horrible. No problems with other games I play so I assume it's just something about this game.

bearxor
Apr 1, 2003, 10:20 PM
C&C Renegade crashes with AA or AF

And my brand new copy of ST: Elite force does as well :(

Mondo
Apr 1, 2003, 10:36 PM
Longest Journey No AA - has 32 bit mode
Grim Fanadago No AA
Anarchy Online No AA - may be fixed in CAT 3.4

Deus Ex filtering is messed up - has 32 bit mode, 32 bit mode does not stay with ATI card.

joker339
Apr 1, 2003, 11:01 PM
Posted by Mondo

Grim Fanadago No AA

WHAT!!! Grim Fandango no AA... OH MAN!! I love Manny Calavera..... reminds me I need to replay it again man... too bad AA doesn't work.

For Whisper:
Yeah - problems with NOLF so I turn off AF - seem fine. The text corruption (lines/etc next to text) - apparently is something which is a known issue with AA and textures for some old games. Apparently can't be fixed. Luckily for me - it only effects a couple of old games (NOLF and Colin McRae 2 come to mind)

gamekill
Apr 1, 2003, 11:12 PM
apparently is something which is a known issue with AA and textures for some old games. Apparently can't be fixed. Luckily for me - it only effects a couple of old games

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Yeah you see, that's the WORST part of the whole FSAA/Aniso problems! I mean, I am an everyday gamer, I love games, and I just LOVE to replay old games when I get new hardware (like a new video card), because I can replay them with absolutely everything turned up to the absolute max! When I got my Geforce4 Ti, I was SO happy to play old games like (I dont know I'm too tired and sleepy to remember) maybe Quake 2, Half Life, Longest Journey, Quake III, Serious Sam, Anarchy Online... all of these in "full FSAA, all details maxed, 1024 glory"!!!

Now if my Radeon 9500 Pro (overclocked at 370 / 315), with all it's potential, can't gimme that, I am truly deeply sad... I mean, I am definitely NOT gonna play Unreal 2, or Black Hawk Down, using 6X FSAA and 16X Aniso under 1024 768! What the hell that doesnt make any sense... Just my thought, but I always liked "fancy stuff" like FSAA and Aniso to be able to relive the classics, not slow down the already-moderately-slow latest games!

ParticleMan
Apr 2, 2003, 12:41 AM
Freespace 1 & 2 (the notorious grid line problem)
Ground Control (FSAA hasn't worked since Cat 2.3 or so)

Mawler
Apr 2, 2003, 01:48 AM
For some reason some games require a reboot after you change the setting in the display settings.

For example Unreal Tournament requires a reboot otherwise I will not get any AA.

FA will cause the water and lava to have a strange dis-colouration to it.

Kuja
Apr 2, 2003, 01:49 AM
Falcon 4.0 - no FSAA

Raging
Apr 2, 2003, 02:51 AM
Splinter cell - Game has messed up lighting, artifacts and stuff with AA and causes Stop errors sometimes when closing or opening it with AA on.

quoquo
Apr 2, 2003, 02:53 AM
Freespace 1&2.Gridline. Also the 16bits FSAA is not working in Freespace 1. The 32bit FSAA works in Freespace 2, but the text is messed up.

Pepsin
Apr 2, 2003, 04:57 AM
Dungeon Siege - No AA/random crashes/black screen

flakes
Apr 2, 2003, 08:31 AM
Toca Race Driver - Cars and other bits of scenery pop up through the ground

Ostsol
Apr 2, 2003, 09:36 AM
FSAA works in Rune with OpenGL. . .

dan2097
Apr 2, 2003, 10:24 AM
Text is messed up in freespace 2 with aa

Higgy10
Apr 2, 2003, 10:34 AM
only 2 that come to mind are arx fatalis and splinter cell, both are game probs not ati.

Just out of curiousity.. why did u ppl buy a $500 dx9 card to play dx5 games? if u can afford this video card, im sure u can affford some new games, in not theres always irc....

ParticleMan
Apr 2, 2003, 11:17 AM
Well the fact is there just aren't that many "good" computer games being released. There are only a handful of new titles actually worth playing. The vast majority of games just stink, and it's nice to play your old favorites. Besides most of the games listed aren't that old, most of them are DX8 and DX7, and thee are no DX9 games that even exist yet. And even if there were just because it is DX9 wouldn't automatically make it better than older games, a lot of games tout using advanced features to try to boost sales, but in reality the game stinks.

I'll just say that newer games don't necessarily mean better games.

BMG_Cya=-
Apr 2, 2003, 11:40 AM
This game is so old that it probably won't get much
attention or addressing in upcoming Driver. But,
maybe someone can look at it, and use what they find
for something else...

Clive Barker's Undying. In this game, when using FSAA
and/or AF, the snow in the Monastary level looks like...
I don't know how to describe it...little flat, bmp.
Windows Logos? Very strange. It's not a game problem
as I bought this game some time ago, and ran it on my
G3 and G4 Ti 4600, and it looked like snow. For some
reason this makes me think of the problem that my
R9700 Pro has in the Fill-Rate tests on 3D Mark 2001 SE.
The Radeon has never run that test as well, or with the
quality, that my old GeForce cards do. Anyway, seems to
be some kind of texel issue...:confused:

Other than that, my 9700 Pro runs rings around
my old G cards. Especially, with the Omega drivers.:)

dan2097
Apr 2, 2003, 11:50 AM
Yay someone else has oddities with Undying. I get sort of squares when using the ectoplasm spell and it hits a target. Lots of little blue squares instead of a sort of pff.

EDIT: ive reproduced it

I think this may only be on the cat3.2s actually i think it worked with the cat3.1s although the cursor on the main menu has iffy (firey squares) on both driver revisions with af i think.


EDIT the dispel spell shows graphical oddities with af +cat3.2s far better.


EDIT it only needs af to occur. Undying runs fine with just fsaa.

Higgy10
Apr 2, 2003, 11:51 AM
well if the game plays good on your gf2 then keep it, dont flame ati cause the game doesnt work properly. hell these games were made long before a 9700 was even imagined

gamekill
Apr 2, 2003, 12:13 PM
Thats true Higgy, and EXACTLY the point! Something called BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY comes to mind...

It is present all over the PC industry!

I mean, if you just think "what the hell these games are older than my latest <whatever>", then how can you expect to use "older" applications like Office, CorelDRAW, Photoshop, on your new WinXP? Or what about sticking your "old" Sound Blaster Live on a new KT333 or KT400 mainboard? Or even better, play your favorite games, the really good ones, on your upgraded system?

:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :bleh:

gamekill
Apr 2, 2003, 12:16 PM
I mean I'm NOT trying to be enemies or anything here man... its just that it is very clear, ATi's intentions were to make these cards work on 100% of DirectX (wich IS supposed to be backwards compatible on all versions) games...

Don't you have an old game you love yourself? Even if it's not a 3D game? (Like Monkey Island series, or Leisure Suit Larry?)

:cool: :cool: :evil: :evil: :rolleyes:

RonT
Apr 2, 2003, 12:23 PM
Falcon 4.0 works great for me with FSAA. Looks very nice.

Ron

BMG_Cya=-
Apr 2, 2003, 12:52 PM
ROFLMAOADMLY...

Have you people lost your mind?
(Or maybe you never had one.)

Where did anyone "flame ATI"? Point that out to me,
and I'll consider you the world's best magician.
Jeez man. You state an issue you have in here and
all these retards come out of the woodwork, all whining
because they can't accept the fact that their ATI vid-card,
(most of them the $79 Kmart variety) is not perfect.

Get a clue, a brain, or a bullet...please.

NOW,....you have been "FLAMED".:lol:

dan2097
Apr 2, 2003, 01:14 PM
For me af/fsaa are just bonuses so if a game works flawlessly with them disabled im still happy. So far I havnt found any games which dont work with my r9700 although it didnt work with my old glide emulator. I expect it was nvidia ooptimized so thats not really a problem (got a working ati optimized one now).

Coincidentally has anyone here used project64 to emulate games and measured the frame rates. The program is capped at "60fps" and the console shows 60fps as the current speed all the times as i have an xp2400+. However by trying the emulation and using fraps the frame rates are actually way below 60. I have no idea whose fault this is (unlocking the frame rates increases the frame rate above 60fps actual but makes it unplayably fast)

Higgy10
Apr 2, 2003, 01:54 PM
actually gamekill if u use older versions of those apps, they wont work under xp. u cant expect ati to fix every game problem with old games, alot of those games havent seen a patch from the developer in over a year

dan2097
Apr 2, 2003, 02:28 PM
nvidias det 21xx fixed my gf2mxs problems with warhammer dark omen and dungeon keeper 1 :P

Then again I didnt buy this rig to play old games on it. I only like playing very old games as moderatly new games normally have a sequel so it just makes me want to play the sequel:p

Unfortunatly the nforce 2 audio thing has virtually no dos support so no more dos gaming for me :(

sschrupp
Apr 2, 2003, 03:27 PM
Since the Post title also refers to other problems... in AC2 Pixel shading does not work as posted various times on this board. Also when using settings other than "application preference" for AA AC2 will get fuzzy looking text.

Mondo
Apr 2, 2003, 03:29 PM
I think only two games here are lower then Directx7

dan2097
Apr 2, 2003, 04:03 PM
Just to clarify the Undying problem (I reproduced the absolutly awful yellow squares of snow problem which BMG_Cya=- has)

It is not actually anything to do with fsaa, as is the case also with my problem.

Both problems are caused by enabling af. It could therefore be a limitation of the games engine I suppose.

Randell
Apr 2, 2003, 04:20 PM
yeah Ground Control. TOCA2 last time I looked,

gtguy01
Apr 2, 2003, 07:04 PM
Does anyone have time to summarize all the FSAA/AF etc results of this thread in one post, maybe in a new thread? I also noticed that the Toca Pro Race Driver Demo (and Mr. "Flakes" has reported that the full version) does not work with FSAA.

ChrisRay
Apr 2, 2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by K.I.L.E.R
Final Fantasy 7/8, Might and Magic 9 -FSAA displays funny background borders


That happened on my Geforce 4 MX/Geforce 4 Ti 4200 as well.

well at least with FF7. Don't remember 8, As they don't even run in 2000...

Gar
Apr 2, 2003, 10:54 PM
links 2003 - bsod with any AA

oryan_dunn
Apr 3, 2003, 12:27 AM
Raven Shield crashes when AA in enabled. It crashes and makes the computer restart. It only happens in SP though. Works great in MP. Friends GF4 works fine all the time. Seems to be a problem with ATI's drivers but I could be wrong.

Kruno
Apr 3, 2003, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by ChrisRay
That happened on my Geforce 4 MX/Geforce 4 Ti 4200 as well.

well at least with FF7. Don't remember 8, As they don't even run in 2000...

I knoe, I just wish someone in the world would fix it. :)

Higgy10
Apr 3, 2003, 01:10 PM
thats odd oryan, i have no probs with raven shield with 4xfsaa and 8xaniso, any more info about the crash u can give?

nsgua
Apr 3, 2003, 01:45 PM
X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter doesn´t work with FSAA on my Radeon 9700PRO :(

nsgua
Apr 3, 2003, 01:46 PM
... and 3dmark 2003 pixel-shader 2.0 test shows strange artefacts when fsaa is enabled (on ALL R300 cards!!)


*update* sorry moderator, please move this thread in the "POST your games that do not work with FSAA and other issues!" thread

thx

Jerry_L
Apr 3, 2003, 02:20 PM
Thanks for the info on Undying! I love that game, especially with all the details maex'd. I will try disabling AF when I get home tonight.

**G.I.BRO**
Apr 3, 2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by nsgua
... and 3dmark 2003 pixel-shader 2.0 test shows strange artefacts when fsaa is enabled (on ALL R300 cards!!)


*update* sorry moderator, please move this thread in the "POST your games that do not work with FSAA and other issues!" thread

thx

Done.

OpenGL guy
Apr 3, 2003, 06:14 PM
Folks,

Some games just don't like having their settings overridden. From the driver's point of view, there's not much to be done. Let me give an example:
- User forces AF or AA
- Application draws point sampled (unfiltered) textures on screen
- Artifacts along edges of polygons are seen

The reason why this happens is that AA and AF cause extra filtering that normally wouldn't be there (original setting was point sampling). This filtering is part of what makes AA and AF work so their's not much you can do except disable the feature.

Another example with AA that is common:
- User forces AA
- Application draws text
- Weird corruption around edges of text appears

This is because many applications pack all of their text into a single texture then access it. When there's not enough space between neighboring letters, you can get artifacts. Again, this is just the way that MSAA works.

Many people think that SSAA will resolve these problems, but SSAA creates a whole host of new problems. For one, SSAA causes more filtering, so cases where no filtering is desired (often on text) will now look fuzzy. Also, SSAA has a very large performance penalty associated with it, much moreso than MSAA.

Now, if the application is enabling AA or AF then it's the programmer's job to make sure that the data they are using looks good with the features. For example, they make sure none of the above mentioned problems occurs (corruption with text, etc.)

As more programs are written with MSAA and AF in mind, these problems will go away, especially because we will work with vendors and help them find/fix problems. However, if you want to override the settings of an older program, the results can be mixed.

In the mean time, there are sorts of games where AA and AF work great with few (if any) problems. I regularly play Ravenshield, SoF2, Warcraft 3 and other games with 4x AA and 8x AF and enjoy every minute! (Mostly I play at 1600x1200 to boot!)

P.S. Don't take this message as an excuse, but as an explanation. :)

gtguy01
Apr 3, 2003, 06:49 PM
Well, personally, the problem I have with ATI's FSAA is not the artifacts, it is the total failure to turn on in some games, as I mentioned earlier (Star Wars Racer, Toca Pro Racer Driver, etc) or very poor performance like in F1 2002. Since FSAA turned on in all these games on my Geforce, and runs fast, I don't think I can fault the game. I think we are talking about two isssues here. a) FSAA not turning on and b) artifacts with FSAA turned on. I totally agree with OpenGl guy on the b) issue, that it is probably the game's fault. But I am more frustrated with a). Here is my idea. Why not introduce an alternative FSAA mode that we can turn on for older games. I know the Geforce's FSAA was a much simpler FSAA technology, I think called oversamping, and done by the software, where the picture is drawn much bigger in memory and then shrunk. This had more of a performance hit, but the Radeons are so fast it shouldn't matter for most of these games. Why not add this alternative very simple FSAA method, as an alternative, that we can activate in the control panel for older games Because this method, that the detonator's use, has much less problems with a) and b). Then when we want to go for performance, we can swith back to regular smoothvision FSAA.

OpenGL guy
Apr 3, 2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by gtguy01
Well, personally, the problem I have with ATI's FSAA is not the artifacts, it is the total failure to turn on in some games, as I mentioned earlier (Rune, Star Wars Racer, Toca Pro Racer Driver, etc) or very poor performance like in F1 2002.
I haven't looked at all of these games, but I can state that some games make it (nearly) impossible to do AA. I believe Rune is based on the Unreal engine. Unreal engine games have an annoying habit of allocating all of the video memory before they create the 3D device. Because of this, there's no memory left for us to create AA buffers. You may not see this problem on other vendors' cards because of differences in how they handle texture memory.
Why not introduce an alternative FSAA mode that we can turn on for older games. I know the Geforce's FSAA was a much simpler FSAA technology, I think called oversamping, and done by the software, where the picture is drawn much bigger in memory and then shrunk. This had more of a performance hit, but the Radeons are so fast it shouldn't matter for most of these games. Why not add this alternative very simple FSAA method, as an alternative, that we can activate in the control panel for older games Because this method, that the detonator's use, has much less problems with a) and b). Then when we want to go for performance, we can swith back to regular smoothvision FSAA.
As I mentioned above, supersampling (aka oversampling) won't always help. If there's not enough memory, for example, then you won't be able to allocate the AA buffers in any event.

I recently did a fix where AA was being disabled unnecessarily in Anarchy Online. This may help some of the games you are having troubles with. I believe this will be in Cat 3.4.

Edit: Fix quoting problem.

Scrapper_511
Apr 4, 2003, 01:03 AM
Baldur's Gate 2
Jane's F/A-18
Flanker 2.5 (full CD, not patch)

Kruno
Apr 4, 2003, 02:48 AM
Can someone comfirm that OpenGL guy is an Ati employee or just a very helpful individual? :)

Overlag
Apr 4, 2003, 09:20 AM
D3D
F12002 = VERY poor performance at ALL resolutions
GPL = It works, but messes up text
Aces High = It works, but messes up text/mouse icon

OgL
Half-life = works great most the time, but causes timerefresh to mess up. Sometimes it messes up like so: Click here (http://www.webb291.freeserve.co.uk/Pictures/HL/FSAAenabledhmmmm.jpg) (note thats 3.0 that did that, rarely happens now) Screenshots no longer work with FSAA enabled.

mohaaPoor performance before FSAA, very little changes with FSAA enabled.

All games: a funny coloured line apears on the top and left side of the picture

Games i cant use without FSAA include HL, FS2000, Aces High. they show there age to much without it ;) I mainly use FSAAx4.

Spec's
WinXP Pro, SP1 and fully patched up
AMD XP2100 @ 2000mhz (XP2400)
Asus A7N8X (latest drivers from nvidia)
Corsair PC3200 2x256 matched pair @ 202 2-2-2-5
Sapphire 9700pro, 3.2 cats, Dx9
431watt PSU with good lines (5 and 12)
80gb WD
Iiyama 19inch with latest drivers (Jan03)
Dlink 548tx old drivers, but it seems Dlink dont make drivers?
Creative Audigy OEM, again, drivers are old but i cant find new ones

gamekill
Apr 4, 2003, 12:04 PM
All games: a funny coloured line apears on the top and left side of the picture

It's just a long shot here, but I remember having a similar problem (only the colored lines where on right/bottom of screen).

I solved it disabling "alternate pixel center" under the advanced Direct3D options!

:) ;) :) ;) :)

OpenGL guy
Apr 4, 2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Overlag
mohaaPoor performance before FSAA, very little changes with FSAA enabled.
That's weird because I ran the game at 1600x1200 w/ 4x AA without any troubles at all... My CPU is only an XP1900+ as well.
All games: a funny coloured line apears on the top and left side of the picture
Nothing can be done about this. Applications need to draw over every subsample but some don't do this consistently so you can get weird effects along the top and left edges.

BobbyRPI2712
Apr 4, 2003, 02:57 PM
Deus Ex No AA or AF works for me, and the game appears to be in 16bit color even after settings are changed.

Ostsol
Apr 4, 2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by OpenGL guy
I haven't looked at all of these games, but I can state that some games make it (nearly) impossible to do AA. I believe Rune is based on the Unreal engine. Unreal engine games have an annoying habit of allocating all of the video memory before they create the 3D device. Because of this, there's no memory left for us to create AA buffers. You may not see this problem on other vendors' cards because of differences in how they handle texture memory.

AA in Rune certainly does work in OpenGL, though. It's darker than D3D, unfortunately, (and the gamma control doesn't work) but AA certainly does.

Ostsol
Apr 4, 2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by BobbyBbs2712
Deus Ex No AA or AF works for me, and the game appears to be in 16bit color even after settings are changed.

Try running the game in OpenGL and perhaps try manually changing colour depth in the .ini file.

Randell
Apr 4, 2003, 04:38 PM
What about games where AA did work but now doesn't - eg Groudn Control? Also if they way you handle texture memory deosnt allow AA in soem games but the other IHV method does, err change the way you handle texture memory :) Unless you can give me a blindingly good reason why the other way is bad?

OpenGL guy
Apr 4, 2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Randell
Also if they way you handle texture memory deosnt allow AA in soem games but the other IHV method does, err change the way you handle texture memory :) Unless you can give me a blindingly good reason why the other way is bad?
If only it were that simple...

Sasquach
Apr 4, 2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by OpenGL guy
If only it were that simple...
it is.
all everyone wants you to do is:

EnableSuperSampling = 1

BAM problem solved :D

gtguy01
Apr 4, 2003, 06:34 PM
Ostol, thanks for the tip for Rune. I knew about the Opengl mode, but I gave up dealing with the broken gamma. Just now I figured out how to fix the gamma with a switch in the rune.ini file - UseGammaExtension=0 in the [OpenGLDrv.OpenGLRenderDevice] part.

Before Ostol's tip, Rune was the only game out of Unreal Engine that I couldn't get working with FSAA. If anybody needs any help getting FSAA with other Unreal Engine games here is how to do it.

Unreal 1 - download latest patch from http://www.oldunreal.com/

Unreal Tournament - Use latest official patch and opengl mode. FSAA with D3d also works if you have the unsupported Beta DirectX8 d3d patch http://www.gweb.me.uk/gweb/ut.htm renderers.zip 19.01.01 . But opengl is better.

Wheel of Time - This one is tricky. Use the initial D3D renderers from the cd. The patched d3d dll breaks FSAA.
This game still has texture problems when "detailed textures" are turned on, with or without AF. AF creates even more problems.

Deus Ex - Use the latest official patch and D3D mode. This game still has texture problems when "detailed textures" are turned on, with or without AF.

This way these Unreal Engine games work with FSAA.

Randell
Apr 4, 2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by OpenGL guy
If only it were that simple...

yeah I was tongue firmly in cheek when I worite that. But it does raise a question over what ATI are doing compared to nVidia on that score.

Qb2k5
Apr 4, 2003, 11:35 PM
My specs are in my sig:


I cant get the 3D hardware TnL to work in NBA LIVE 2000.Only the Software Render works.Would anyone know any patches?

GeCcO
Apr 5, 2003, 02:54 AM
The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind works really bad, i get around 15fps in the city's (not much better outside the city's either), thats half of what i got with my GeForce 256 PRO :(

Guybo
Apr 5, 2003, 07:24 AM
Splinter Cell's latest patch fixes the lighting probs with FSAA... by competely disabling FSAA in the game.

NFSHP2 has always had poor FSAA performance

Superbike 2001 is unplayable with FSAA

Any Quake3 engine game (STVEF, RTCW Q3) plays like a dream at 6x FSAA and 16x AF. MOHAA looks amazing, the performance is unmatched in any other game. It's like the 9700 was made esp for MOHAA.

Devastation slows down a little with 6x FSAa at 1280x960 and 8x AF

NWN has very poor performance with FSAA, and multiple lighting sources & shadows absolutely kill it. NWN was made for nVidia cards- that's all there is to it.

Tony Hwak 3 looks great with 6x FSAA, 8x AF

Test Drive looks great too with the eye candy cranked

AktOut
Apr 5, 2003, 09:32 PM
This game is pretty old but in StarSiege when FSAA is enabled the game has distorted gritty graphics and the Frames Per Second drop a hell of a lot! It would be nice to fix that :p

Ntrox
Apr 14, 2003, 09:59 AM
OpenGL guy, any chance you could point me to your Anarchy Online patch? I'd love to have FSAA again in this game! :D

Vintook
Apr 14, 2003, 10:47 AM
Mechwarrior 3 still doesn't work with FSAA

Blade77
Apr 14, 2003, 10:51 AM
DTM Race Driver (in Germany, I think it's TOCA 3 in UK).
Z-Buffer corrupt with FSAA on.

riles9262
Apr 14, 2003, 11:06 AM
SIMCITY4 goddamnit this game, it crashes whether fsaa or af is on or not now...i dunno if there's anything ati can do...and as if the graphics turning off during scrolling wasnt enuf :mad:

baldur's gate 2, planescape: torment, pretty much all those bioware games...

joker339
Apr 17, 2003, 08:51 AM
OpenGL Guy (although I'm not supposed to address u guys directly....),

I understand your explanations - esp with old games and such. I believe that the standard of testing lies with whether the game can work at normal settings - w/o AA/AF. However, AA/AF would be real nice.

For new games - there's little excuse :)

My point though... I REALLY REALLY wish that ATI people (including the official responses from interviews posted at websites) would stop telling us about the performance hit with SSAA. I believe that most of us KNOW about the performance hit and will only USE IT as a last resort or out-of-choice. Under no circumstance will a reasonable person come back and so 'look man your SSAA sucks!! it runs 3 times slower than MSAA... you guys suck... you don't know how to code'.

Anyone who goes along those lines deserve to be ignored! As for the rest of us - PLEASE - let us TAKE THE PERFORMANCE HIT. We'll decide whether we can live with it.

My apologies to all as this is a bit off-topic. Also, this is not meant to be accusational/insulting in any manner - just to highlight a point. And I note that you mentioned that it's an explanation and not an excuse (which is fair).

----------------------------------------------

And to someone who posted earlier - Raven Shield works fine with AA/AF on (except for slowdowns with nightvision). No reboots here.

As for Infinity engine games (BG2, Planescape, IWD, etc) - I notice it too - but I don't think we're really missing anything - 3d acceleration is only used for special/spell effects and such. Ain't going to change much else.

pr0iv2
Apr 17, 2003, 09:44 AM
on older drivers dungeon siege had corrupted graphics in 32bit

alien vs predator gold when AA on perf mode
has random black squares on screen

ALL my games stutter horribly with any AA on if i multitask
say q3 and winamp
even if i run 640x480x16 with medium detail and no aniso

that multitask bug needs to be fixed pronto

it worked earlier with older drivers which were slower
and works fine now without AA

i even have 512 mb of ddr too athlonxp 1700

sheesh a voodoo3 stutters less at 640x480
on 128mb sdram with 500mhz k6-2

oh yeah, UNREAL TOURNAMENT 2003
even 2x perf mode AA gets 8 FPS!!!
on a r9000 at least

OpenGL guy
Apr 17, 2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Ntrox
OpenGL guy, any chance you could point me to your Anarchy Online patch? I'd love to have FSAA again in this game! :D
My "patch" is in the driver so you'll have to wait until ATi releases the driver with the fix.

Sorry...

OpenGL guy
Apr 17, 2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by joker339
For new games - there's little excuse :)
New games can have problems too... The developer has to do things in an AA-friendly manner, else there could be problems.
My point though... I REALLY REALLY wish that ATI people (including the official responses from interviews posted at websites) would stop telling us about the performance hit with SSAA. I believe that most of us KNOW about the performance hit and will only USE IT as a last resort or out-of-choice. Under no circumstance will a reasonable person come back and so 'look man your SSAA sucks!! it runs 3 times slower than MSAA... you guys suck... you don't know how to code'.
Problem is, people would complain. Support calls would go up because people wouldn't realize they were using SSAA instead of MSAA, etc.
Anyone who goes along those lines deserve to be ignored! As for the rest of us - PLEASE - let us TAKE THE PERFORMANCE HIT. We'll decide whether we can live with it.
We can't ignore users with support problems...
And to someone who posted earlier - Raven Shield works fine with AA/AF on (except for slowdowns with nightvision). No reboots here.
I've noticed the slowdown with nightvision as well and plan on looking at it soon.

Pr()ZaC
Apr 17, 2003, 05:03 PM
OpenGL Guy: It's always nice to see people from ATi replying user's posts!

Thanks.

Crawdaddy79
Apr 17, 2003, 05:11 PM
NFS: PU and CB's Undying's funny squares were explained in a way that would make one believe that AF would produce these errors. Well, I've used AF in both games with the 8500, and haven't encountered any problems. And the AF works great with that card, bless it's underappreciated soul.

Anyway, I haven't seen anybody mention the crazy crazy z-buffer (I suspect) problems in Sacrifice. The old fix for the 8500 was to enable W-Buffer support. There's no option for the 9700. However, I did download Rage3D Tweaker and enable it through that, but no cigar. It still happens. I've also played with every Z-buffer setting possible, as well as 'making sure' my desktop was set to 32-bit color, etc. It still happens. Again, this is another error that did not happen with the 8500.

Another game I haven't seen mentioned is Blade of Darkness. This game worked flawlessly on my 8500/WinXP (but not at all in Win98), but not the 9700Pro. Now it only works because I have the menu memorized. Unfortunately I'm into playing the 3rd party mods for the game, and NEED to see the menu in order to select the mod I want to play. With AA enabled, you can't see anything in the menu, and without it, you can see it, but it's black text and the words don't highlight. I am aware of the third party OpenGL raster and if you've ever used it, you can not beat the game because of the Gorge of Orlock (the snow level) where the fog is so thick you can't even see your character, much less an enemy or a sudden drop off to death.

I'm having problems running AVP Gold, but I think it's my sound card. Basically if I cancel out of the opening sequence, I'll hear an infinite loop until I exit out of the game. If I let the sequence play, the game plays like crap afterwards (horrible stuttering, low FPS). This also happened with the 8500.

Mondo
Apr 17, 2003, 07:55 PM
OpenGL guy make it a hidden feature PLEASE!!!!

joker339
Apr 18, 2003, 12:46 AM
Posted by OpenGL Guy

Problem is, people would complain. Support calls would go up because people wouldn't realize they were using SSAA instead of MSAA, etc.

Noted and agreed. Maybe it should be hidden somewhere or get some major warning. (But nevermind - no need for response).

I've noticed the slowdown with nightvision as well and plan on looking at it soon.

Great news! :)

Randell
Apr 18, 2003, 02:53 AM
yeah after all, nVidia kept AA modes and AF hiddne for a long while on the Gf3..

euan
Apr 18, 2003, 09:24 AM
The only bug I've found in Cat3.2 is that when I disable AGP reads (AGP writes are also disabled by default due to chipset). When ever an opengl application exits, the PC is stopped with a BSOD. I reported it to Sir Eric, but it was before I found that it was due to AGP reads being disabled, so he couldn't re-create the problem.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33674770&highlight=AGP+reads

AGP reads were disabled because it solves a major stuttering problem with a scene demo called MDMA.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33653450&highlight=AGP+reads

ParticleMan
Apr 18, 2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by OpenGL guy

Problem is, people would complain. Support calls would go up because people wouldn't realize they were using SSAA instead of MSAA, etc.

We can't ignore users with support problems...



If that is the problem just add a registry key for it, then people can use Radlinker, Rage3D Tweak etc to enable it. People who are knowledgeable enough to use a 3rd party tweaker should know about the pros and cons of supersampling, and besides ATi doesn't have to support 3rd party tweakers. Or you could put it in compatibilty fixes and put a big warning next to it.

There are also clueless people who complain about low scores who have FSAA or anisotropic filtering enabled. Does that mean that you should simply not have FSAA or aniso options at all? Anyways my suggestion is a registry key for unofficial support of supersampling, or put it in a sub menu with a warning.

Kuja
Apr 19, 2003, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by OpenGL guy
I've noticed the slowdown with nightvision as well and plan on looking at it soon.

Can you do the same for Splinter Cell? It might be different & simply because drawing frames using NV is more complex, but I get chopped off at the knees whenever I turn NV on in splinter cell.

KillerSneak
Apr 19, 2003, 06:05 AM
Could Someon make an list with all games listed in this thread with their problems ? please

Tenchi-no-Ryu
Apr 19, 2003, 07:05 AM
This is a problem i've had with the Catalyst 3.2's using an AIW 9700 Pro.

Well, I have to say that while the CAT 3.2's solved alot of frame dropping problems with all of my afflicted Direct X games, it caused a really nasty problem in Anarchy Online with AA selected. This caused many polygons in the background to take on a wavering, jagged appearance at distances that resolved when the camera was within about 10 meters of the object you were viewing. It was like the image was being redrawn in a horizonal pattern that almost looked like shimmering. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that this gets pretty annoying after a while. i would have rolled back to the 3.1's except for the god awful skips and frame drops I had with those drivers.


Anyway, I'm pretty sure this is a driver issue as it wasn't present with the 3.1's and I didn't have anything like this with my Geforce 3 with AA enabled. The problem still occurs when AA is disabled, but it's not quite as pronounced ( the game is jaggy as hell when it's not enhanced by the videocards effects).

I'm hoping the next driver set fixes this problem as alot of players of the game have posted the issue in the Anarchy Online Tech Support forums, though they should really have posted the issue here.

Other than that I think you guys are doing a great job, and I love the card, just please fix this eyesore before this constant shimmering gives me a seizure ;p

OpenGL guy
Apr 19, 2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Tenchi-no-Ryu
This is a problem i've had with the Catalyst 3.2's using an AIW 9700 Pro.

Well, I have to say that while the CAT 3.2's solved alot of frame dropping problems with all of my afflicted Direct X games, it caused a really nasty problem in Anarchy Online with AA selected. This caused many polygons in the background to take on a wavering, jagged appearance at distances that resolved when the camera was within about 10 meters of the object you were viewing. It was like the image was being redrawn in a horizonal pattern that almost looked like shimmering. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that this gets pretty annoying after a while. i would have rolled back to the 3.1's except for the god awful skips and frame drops I had with those drivers.


Anyway, I'm pretty sure this is a driver issue as it wasn't present with the 3.1's and I didn't have anything like this with my Geforce 3 with AA enabled. The problem still occurs when AA is disabled, but it's not quite as pronounced ( the game is jaggy as hell when it's not enhanced by the videocards effects).
I'm surprised your getting AA at all with Anarchy Online... I recently fixed a problem where AA was being disabled for the game unnecessarily. Not sure what driver the fix is in, though.

gtguy01
Apr 19, 2003, 05:03 PM
As requested, here is a summary of this thread. Let me first say that even though this is a quite a list, there are probably 3000 games out there and more than 80% of games I've tried work with no problems, and probably more than 95% work if you disable FSAA and AF. This is by no means a bashing of ATI, this is meant to help improve the drivers. (I'm still thrilled with the ATI Radeon 9700 I have, which I chose over the Geforce FX. And if I was rich the 9800 PRO would be my first choice.) Thanks to ATI's OpenGL guy for your contributions to this thread. I think we all appreciate that ATI is at least listening to us.

1) FSAA Fails

Longest Journey (Funcom)
Star Wars Racer (LucasArts)
Jeff Gordon XS Racing (ASC Games) **FIXED IN 3.4
Star Monkey (Small Rockets) **FIXED IN 3.4
Ultra Assault (Small Rockets) **FIXED IN 3.4
Grim Fanadago No AA
Anarchy Online No AA - ** FIXED IN CAT 3.4
Ground Control (FSAA hasn't worked since Cat 2.3 or so)
Toca Race Driver – and cars and other bits of scenery pop up through the ground
Ground Control ?
X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter
Baldur's Gate 2
Jane's F/A-18
Flanker 2.5
Mechwarrior 3
baldur's gate 2
planescape


2) FSAA with Corrupted Graphics

Final Fantasy 7/8, Might and Magic 9 -FSAA displays funny background borders
NOLF - Funny text artifacts
Freespace 1 & 2 (the notorious grid line problem)
Descent III (the notorious grid line problem and corrupted text)
Splinter cell - Game has messed up lighting, artifacts and stuff with AA
Superbike 2001
StarSiege when FSAA is enabled the game has distorted gritty graphics
Blade of Darkness with AA enabled, you can't see anything in the menu



3) FSAA Very Poor Performance

F1 2002
Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 2 ** FIXED IN CAT 3.6
The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind
NWN (Neverwinter Nights?)

4) FSAA Game Crashes
C&C Renegade crashes with AA ??
ST: Elite force crashes with AA ??
links 2003

5) Graphic Bugs with Anisotropic Filter On

Giants (to test load level 4 - The Ripper Nest)
Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed **FIXED IN 3.4
Wheel of Time (Unreal Engine)
Clive Barker's Undying (Unreal Engine)


6) Problem with textures with Unreal Engine "Detailed Textures" on

Deus Ex
Wheel of Time

7) Game unplayable

Racing Simulation 3 (Ubisoft) - FIXED IN 3.4
Salt Lake 2002 - won't start

ciparis
Apr 19, 2003, 06:18 PM
Hard lock: DAoC Shrouded Isles when using AA.

ciparis
Apr 19, 2003, 06:25 PM
Hard lock method #2: Run two DAoC SI windows, both without AA. Eventual BSOD Hardlock (no exception catch/report, ati driver shown on bluescreen).

OpenGL guy
Apr 20, 2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by ciparis
Hard lock method #2: Run two DAoC SI windows, both without AA. Eventual BSOD Hardlock (no exception catch/report, ati driver shown on bluescreen).
I fixed this a while ago. However, I don't know what driver the fix it in.

ciparis
Apr 22, 2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by OpenGL guy
I fixed this a while ago. However, I don't know what driver the fix it in.


Oh thank heavens :) I hate that one.

planetsven
Apr 22, 2003, 12:44 PM
I agree to the F1 2002 poor performance with AA on (although fps being at 39). However, even with AA off I have stutters when the weather changes in the Game!!?? The rest is running fine with everything on at 51 fps. Is this a known issue? Please help!

Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 2: No probs. Running like hell with everything on since Cat 3.2. Need for Speed Porsche: very slow!!

System: Athlon XP 2600, Nforce2, 512MB, Sapphire Radeon 9500 (64MB), not overclocked, not modded, Cat 3.2

Detonate
Apr 22, 2003, 01:13 PM
No FSAA in Anarchy Online
http://www.anarchy-online.com/

PlanDreaM
Apr 22, 2003, 04:50 PM
sorry guys but planescape isnt d3d.its dx.noticed the morrowind issue....i love this game.well,my old v5 had the best fsaa ever....unmatched :-)

PlanDreaM
Apr 22, 2003, 04:58 PM
in my old p3/v5 rig on w2k ff8 worked perfectly with 4xfsaa.ff7 didnt actually.it crashed when i was moving the character although i think it only crashed when i was moving with my sidewinder midi gamepad.weird?

OpenGL guy
Apr 22, 2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by PlanDreaM
sorry guys but planescape isnt d3d.its dx. noticed the morrowind issue....i love this game.well,my old v5 had the best fsaa ever....unmatched :-)
Except that it lacked gamma correction and only supported up to 4 samples, but other than that... ;)

And I never noticed any problems with AA in Morrowind and I was playing at 1600x1200 with 4x AA and 8x AF.

PlanDreaM
Apr 22, 2003, 07:19 PM
gamma correction was fixed ...and 4x is Rotating grid fsaa.you havent seen one for sure to tell its worse than atis...its 100times better than a radeon fsaa or an nvidia....juxt see diablo2 on 4xfsaa -8 lodbias and 32bit forced rendering....and youll understand.the morrowind problem is likely due to the 9500 not the 9700pro.got a 9500 and in fsaaquality is just slow.its faster than my old pc but its slow.i think its the rad9500.OH AND JUST SEE THAT AMAZING FALCON 4.0 ON V5 AND JUST STARE AT ITS PICTURE PERFECT FSAA....and v5 is long dead and a '99 card...

Radea
Apr 22, 2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by PlanDreaM
gamma correction was fixed ...and 4x is Rotating grid fsaa.you havent seen one for sure to tell its worse than atis...its 100times better than a radeon fsaa or an nvidia....juxt see diablo2 on 4xfsaa -8 lodbias and 32bit forced rendering....and youll understand.the morrowind problem is likely due to the 9500 not the 9700pro.got a 9500 and in fsaaquality is just slow.its faster than my old pc but its slow.i think its the rad9500.OH AND JUST SEE THAT AMAZING FALCON 4.0 ON V5 AND JUST STARE AT ITS PICTURE PERFECT FSAA....and v5 is long dead and a '99 card...
? The VSA100 lacks hardware support for gamma corrected FSAA, AFAIK ATI is the only consumer based company with it. The VSA100 only does upto 4 pixels as OGLGuy said, and the R300/350 do RGMS, the voodoo does RGSS. With the voodoo you eliminate texture aliasing, but with the radeon you dont get blurred text.

Sorry to say, but ATI's FSAA is king :evil:

OpenGL guy
Apr 22, 2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by PlanDreaM
gamma correction was fixed
No, the Voodoo 5 never supported gamma corrected AA.
...and 4x is Rotating grid fsaa.
That's great, so is the Radeon 9700's.
you havent seen one for sure to tell its worse than atis...
I haven't? What do you know about me?
its 100times better than a radeon fsaa or an nvidia....
On edge quality, the Voodoo 5 is not superior at all, and is in fact worse than the 9700 because the 9700 has gamma correct AA plus 6 sample AA if you want it. The only thing the Voodoo 5 had going for it was the fact that it did super sampling so texture quality was increased. However, the Voodoo 5 lacked AF, so it loses there too!

Randell
Apr 23, 2003, 02:01 AM
indeed having owned both ATI has the edge now. But - ATI's AF still produces Moire in some areas where the V5's SS cleared it up. Metal grids and the yellow chevrons in teh garage in CS Seige are always a good test case for this.

AdamK47
Apr 23, 2003, 06:03 AM
I just wanted to drop a reply here and say thank you to OpenGL guy and Catalyst Maker for their effort in making FSAA working in the games I love. I originally had a 9700 pro way back in Sept. and returned it not long after getting it due to FSAA incompatibilities and other issues. Since then I was using a GF4 4600. A few days ago, after the price drop, I picked up a 9700 Pro again and sold the GF4. The drivers for the board are much much much more improved. FSAA is amazing on the board and the compatibility issues I had before have been resolved. I'm glad to have the board, but I'm also glad I didn't wait it out for the improved drivers. Thanks for listening to us complain and fixing the issues.

Here's a thread from a while ago.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33649897

Overlag
Apr 23, 2003, 07:07 AM
^------Agreed, things are ALOT better now :drool:

PlanDreaM
Apr 23, 2003, 04:59 PM
i like my ati but doesnt stand a chance against diablo2.i prefered the 3dfx times though with the blurred texts.anything new with Falcon 4.0?its kinda slow on my old celeron/v2 rig.i would really appreciate if this could be fixed.

P.s. why not RGSS on a radeon?too slow?(it had a severe performance hit thats for sure...)and sorry if o offended someone.

OpenGL guy
Apr 23, 2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Randell
indeed having owned both ATI has the edge now. But - ATI's AF still produces Moire in some areas where the V5's SS cleared it up. Metal grids and the yellow chevrons in teh garage in CS Seige are always a good test case for this.
SS will help with moire, but it won't give as much texture detail as AF. Alas, sometimes more detail comes with more noise. However, I'll take some noise in some cases if I can get much better texture quality most of the time.

Next time you start reminiscing about your Voodoo 5, think about how well it runs pixel shaders, that should bring you back to reality ;)

PlanDreaM
Apr 23, 2003, 08:09 PM
well back then wasnt any pixels shaders.iam happy about my rad9500np but iam fiixing the old rig for old games and stuff too.besides:what card can someone buy today?it has two options:ATI or a Matrox if he needs a million displays on a single card....no other REAL options considering customer support and care...and dont talk about nV...we know who they are and what they do.

ParticleMan
Apr 23, 2003, 11:41 PM
I think the 9700 produces better FSAA quality than the Voodoo 5, but that is "IF" it works properly with that game. What I really liked about the Voodoo 5's FSAA is that it worked with pretty much everything glitch free. The same cannot be said for the 9700. ATi needs to fix the FSAA bugs and glitches mentioned in this thread or give us some sort of workaround like supersampling or something.

Glitch free compatibility is just as important as image quality for FSAA IMO.

Randell
Apr 24, 2003, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by OpenGL guy
SS will help with moire, but it won't give as much texture detail as AF. Alas, sometimes more detail comes with more noise. However, I'll take some noise in some cases if I can get much better texture quality most of the time.

Well now we could have an SS+AF option now couldn't we for old games like CS? ;)

AdamK47
Apr 24, 2003, 03:22 AM
Woah! I just tried out System Shock 2 and Summoner with 4X AA. They look amazing! The FSAA and the forced 32-bit color make a huge difference. Thanks Ati! I'm going to play through System Shock 2 again.

Dwarden
Apr 24, 2003, 08:09 AM
ATI reduced most of problems in OFPR with catalyst 3.2 but still stutter is there when you are using hi resolution textures, higher screen resolutions and AA/Aniso and such

plus there is one BSOD issue with ATI2DVAG.DLL

see more in this thread

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33680679

:mad:

Sylvester
Apr 24, 2003, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by bearxor
C&C Renegade crashes with AA or AF


I find renegade will not allow in game gamma setting to work, neither will Eve beta.

The only programme I have which works with in game gamma slider at the moment is 3DMark03 !

PlanDreaM
Apr 29, 2003, 06:20 PM
well renegades crashes every now and then.after 20-30 mins of playing.can you force 32bit rendering on a radeon for every app(just like the v5)?i need it for older games.

Mondo
Apr 30, 2003, 03:17 AM
Voodoo 5's AA was great

Anyone have Red Faction crashing on them with AA on?

ChrisRay
Apr 30, 2003, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by ParticleMan
I think the 9700 produces better FSAA quality than the Voodoo 5, but that is "IF" it works properly with that game. What I really liked about the Voodoo 5's FSAA is that it worked with pretty much everything glitch free. The same cannot be said for the 9700. ATi needs to fix the FSAA bugs and glitches mentioned in this thread or give us some sort of workaround like supersampling or something.

Glitch free compatibility is just as important as image quality for FSAA IMO.


This pretty much sums it up. You can have the greates AA/AF algorithims in the world and if they dont work its pretty frustrating.


I actually didn't buy Anarchy Online and went to Everquest because of this bug. Which ATI has basically said is there issue.

AdamK47
Apr 30, 2003, 12:50 PM
I just tried, or rather attempted to try, Empire Earth. The game crashes with or without FSAA. With FSAA, all text disappears.

KillerSneak
Apr 30, 2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by AdamK47
I just tried, or rather attempted to try, Empire Earth. The game crashes with or without FSAA. With FSAA, all text disappears.

Have you tried the game with the new 3.3 drivers from DELL ?

gtguy01
Jul 16, 2003, 10:54 PM
I have updated the games lists (on pages 1 and the ones I knew on page 5) with the games that have been fixed with the latest Catalyst release. Let me know if there are any more. Can someone merge this data with the one in the other "Catalyst 3.5 Current Issues - Ati Todo List".

Randell
Jul 17, 2003, 01:38 AM
Ground Control AA works if you disable the second display (assuming you are not using it of course).

ggaky00
Jul 17, 2003, 02:03 AM
i got Lara Croft: Angel Of Darkness yesterday and finally made the game work

but geez... flashing textures are veeery common thing and i wasn't able to play the game with FSAA

no no no.... no way. not within the game and surelly not from the driver option.

too bad :( cause i like the game...

spyre
Jul 17, 2003, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by gtguy01
I have updated the games lists (on pages 1 and the ones I knew on page 5) with the games that have been fixed with the latest Catalyst release. Let me know if there are any more. Can someone merge this data with the one in the other "Catalyst 3.5 Current Issues - Ati Todo List".

I'll add it as soon as I can :D