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View Full Version : Best deinterlace setting in TMPGenc Plus (for PAL SVCD)?


Bengan
Dec 4, 2002, 05:01 PM
I'd like some advice as to what type of deinterlacing that gives the best result on captures from PAL tv.

I capture in 704x576 Huffyuv with iuVCR and then compress it to SVCD PAL format (VBR 2-Pass highest quality) with TMPGenc Plus.

Now, I know SVCDs are supposed to be interlaced but using progressive vid seems to give the best results imo. I get alot less blocky artifacts in moving areas using progressiv video. I guess the bitrate is just to low for good interlaced vid.

So while compressing i use TMPGenc Plus's deinterlace filter and then encode non-interlaced mode.

Now, my question is: What type of deinterlacing is best to use and are there any downside making a non-interlaced SVCD? Will all standalone DVD players that support SVCD play non-interlaced ok? Thats importent :)

I have used the Deinterlace - DOUBLE sofar but some say it makes the vid not so sharp as using EVEN FIELD... Here are the options TMPGenc lets me use:

-Even field Only use the even field for deinterlacing.
-Even field (adaptation) Only use the even field, but use the adjacent frames to fill any missing data.
-Even field (animation adaptation) Only use the even field for deinterlacing. Optimized for animation.
-Even field (animation adaptation 2) Only use the even field for deinterlacing. Optimized for animation.
-Odd field Only use the odd field for deinterlacing.
-Odd field (adaptation) Only use the odd field, but use the adjacent frames to fill any missing data.
-Odd field (animation adaptation) Only use the odd field for deinterlacing. Optimized for animation.
-Odd field (animation adaptation 2) Only use the odd field for deinterlacing. Optimized for animation.
-Double Use both the even and odd numbered fields for deinterlacing. Still frames will double in size, but it will produce the smoothest output for scenes with motion.
-Double (adaptation) Use both the even and odd numbered fields for deinterlacing, while considering the adjacent frames.
-Double (field) Use the adjacent fields in deinterlacing. This doubles the frame rate.
-Double (field, adaptation) Use the even, odd, and adjacent fields in deinterlacing. This doubles the frame rate.
-Even-Odd field
Use the same even and odd fields in deinterlacing. This doubles the frame rate of the output.
-Even-Odd field
(adaptation) Use the same even and odd fields, and adjacent frames in deinterlacing. This doubles the frame rate of the output.
-Even-Odd field
(animation adaptation) Use the same even and odd fields, and adjacent frames in deinterlacing. This doubles the frame rate of the output. Optimized for animations.
-Even-Odd field
(animation adaptation 2) Use the same even and odd fields, and adjacent frames in deinterlacing. This doubles the frame rate of the output. Optimized for animations.


Any thought about what option would be best for PAL tv signal?

Erratic1
Dec 5, 2002, 11:03 AM
Capturing 704x576 Huffyuv is excellent. Then using TMPGEnc for making the SVCD is excellent as well. Most people seem to prefer interlaced SVCDs, but if your deinterlaced SVCDs look better, that's fine by me. However, if you filtered out the noise and smoothed the video with VirtualDub, you wouldn't get so many artifacts, even if you keep it interlaced. But filtering can take a log time, so I understand it if you don't want to bother.

I've read that TMPGEnc's deinterlacing is very good, but I didn't know it had so many deinterlacing options. I always use Donald Graft's smart deinterlace filter for VirtualDub. And take this into account: if you want the perfect aspect ratio, you will have to use VirtualDub to add black bars (8 pixels wide) left and right to your 704x576 AVI file (making it 720x576). Only then will it be resized 100% correctly to 480x576. If you resize 704x576 to 480x576 the aspect ratio will be slightly wrong. But you probably won't notice it, so you may not care. Anyway, the black bars wouldn't be visible on your TV because of overscan.

So my advice is: process your 704x576 AVI file with VirtualDub and frameserve it to TMPGEnc for encoding to SVCD. In VirtualDub you should first deinterlace (if you insist on deinterlacing) then add black bars left and right, then resize to 480x576, then maybe apply noise reduction and smoothing filters (if you're the patient type) and then frameserve (http://www.vcdhelp.com/virtualdubframeserve) to TMPGEnc.

Or you could use MMC's SVCD template and avoid perfection altogether, but it's fast! ;)

Bengan
Dec 5, 2002, 03:04 PM
Thanks alot for youre reply, very intresting info! :)

I have grown to hate MMCs captures simply because they look awful compared to offline encoding and even worse, the unreported frameloss that often happens. So MMC is not an option anymore ;)

Hmm, frameserving with Virtualdub seem a bit to complicated if I can do all of it in TEMPGenc Plus but I'm still abit confused what setting would be best.
I have a ton of files to encode and would hate finding out later that I've done it wrong and already deleted all the Fashion TV lingerie shows :)

BTW, I read in iuVCR's helpfile that I could use DScaler or any other Directshow filter for deinterlacing while capturing. However I have no idea what filter would be best and how to install it...

Bengan
Dec 5, 2002, 03:23 PM
BTW, about the aspect ratio...
TEMPGenc Plus gives me an option called "Video arrange method: Full screen (keep aspect ratio)". Maybe that solves the problem you mentioned?

NEVERLIFT
Dec 5, 2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Erratic1


I've read that TMPGEnc's deinterlacing is very good

Thats not true. Its not very good but it works.



@Bengan
check this out and scroll to the bottom for links and info about Pal.
http://www.doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm

And you should deinterlace your video... otherwise it will look like crap and have interlacing artifacts.

Erratic1
Dec 5, 2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by NEVERLIFT
Thats not true. Its not very good but it works.Well on this web page (http://nickyguides.digital-digest.com/interlace-test.htm) I read: As a final note, the only truly 100% perfect deinterlace method I have seen seems to be the one that uses TMPGEnc. It is very hard to do but produces perfect results. My friend Doom9 has a guide on how to do it.

But I haven't tried it myself, so I won't comment on it any further.

Erratic1
Dec 5, 2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by NEVERLIFT
And you should deinterlace your video... otherwise it will look like crap and have interlacing artifacts. On a monitor deinterlaced looks a lot better, but on a TV screen interlaced video looks a lot sharper and has much better motion. It also needs a higher bitrate, but it's worth it.

NEVERLIFT
Dec 5, 2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Erratic1
Well on this web page (http://nickyguides.digital-digest.com/interlace-test.htm) I read: As a final note, the only truly 100% perfect deinterlace method I have seen seems to be the one that uses TMPGEnc. It is very hard to do but produces perfect results. My friend Doom9 has a guide on how to do it.

But I haven't tried it myself, so I won't comment on it any further.


My friend duhmez should see this.
I to thought it did a good job but he showed me sample's of where he took a clip and let TMPGEnc deinterlace it and then where he used AviSynth and framed served it. And comparing frame by frame the results where shocking!

TMPGEnc does work good for IVTC.

But I'm not real clear on Pal and all this. I use NTSC sources alot or Film. I love Film sources ;)

And when I do deinterlace I use two filters Deinterlace - Area Based and Smart Deinterlace.

1)Area Based Deinterlacer, edge detect 50, threshold 27

2)Smart Deinterlacer, fram and field differencing, blend, cubic, motion threshold 20, scene change 100, field swap before and after.

This seems to work very well for me. And I got this from a guy on the Arsetech forum's.

NEVERLIFT
Dec 5, 2002, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Erratic1
On a monitor deinterlaced looks a lot better, but on a TV screen interlaced video looks a lot sharper and has much better motion. It also needs a higher bitrate, but it's worth it.

Hmmmm I have to disagree. Interlace artifacts ruin image/detail/sharpness and fast motion scenes will look like crap.

Erratic1
Dec 5, 2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by NEVERLIFT
Hmmmm I have to disagree. Interlace artifacts ruin image/detail/sharpness and fast motion scenes will look like crap. You're absolutely wrong this time. I quote from this website (http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Location/5272/vidfilm1.htm): Since NTSC interlaced video records and playsback 60 separate field images per second, the image motion is updated more frequently than film. Therefore the motion clarity of interlaced video is smoother than film.

Deinterlaced video looks more like film than interlaced video, but on a TV screen interlaced video is absolutely better. That's a fact. Nothing you say or write can make me change my mind.

NEVERLIFT
Dec 5, 2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Erratic1
You're absolutely wrong this time. I quote from this website (http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Location/5272/vidfilm1.htm): Since NTSC interlaced video records and playsback 60 separate field images per second, the image motion is updated more frequently than film. Therefore the motion clarity of interlaced video is smoother than film.

Deinterlaced video looks more like film than interlaced video, but on a TV screen interlaced video is absolutely better. That's a fact. Nothing you say or write can make me change my mind.

I will stick to deinterlacing when need be ;)
I prefer the extra quality it provides me.

NEVERLIFT
Dec 5, 2002, 07:01 PM
Maybe you should go here so you can see what I'm talking about.

http://www.100fps.com/

http://www.inmatrix.com/articles/ivtc.shtml

http://www.digital-digest.com/nickyguides/interlace.htm


The only reason I prefer Film source is because it does not have to be Deinterlaced ;)

If you like Interlaced Artifacts then by all means you go right ahead and do what you like.

Erratic1
Dec 5, 2002, 07:10 PM
Interlacing artifacts are invisible on a TV screen. Maybe you are watching through your ATI card's TV-out. I don't know if that can cause interlacing artifacts. But interlaced video on a DVD or CD has absolutely no interlacing artifacts on a TV, unless the DVD or SVCD was made with the wrong field order setting. A well-made interlaced DVD or SVCD always looks better on a TV (when played in a DVD player, maybe not through TV-out, don't know about that).

Why do you think they're still making interlaced TV programs? If deinterlaced video looked better, they would deinterlace their programs. They don't, they know what they're doing!

NEVERLIFT
Dec 5, 2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Erratic1
Interlacing artifacts are invisible on a TV screen. Maybe you are watching through your ATI card's TV-out. I don't know if that can cause interlacing artifacts. But interlaced video on a DVD or CD has absolutely no interlacing artifacts on a TV, unless the DVD or SVCD was made with the wrong field order setting. A well-made interlaced DVD or SVCD always looks better on a TV (when played in a DVD player, maybe not through TV-out, don't know about that).

Why do you think they're still making interlaced TV programs? If deinterlaced video looked better, they would deinterlace their programs. They don't, they know what they're doing!

Guess the TV-out mind set blinded me.
I will still deinterlace and be happy with my quality....
As this interlaced **** is from the 1930's :lol:

Bengan
Dec 6, 2002, 12:26 AM
Intresting stuff this Interlacing ;)

I read the guides at doom9 but they seem to be targeted at NTSC and TMPGenc's IVTC filter, not deinterlace filter that i use for PAL.

At this page (http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78320) they discuss deinterlacing abit and DigitalOv says this: De-Interlacing DOUBLE!??!?!?! That will cause Unwanted Ghosting in high motion scenes and it actually Blurs he Image in low motion scenes. I personally recemmend EVEN (adaptive) for NTSC over BLEND or DOUBLE
I tried opening a vid in TEMPGenc and using the preview in deinterlace filter to see the effect. If I set it to DOUBLE the image gets ghosting during movement but it also helps getting rid of the blockiness. If I set it to EVEN (adaptive) it does look sharper however the blockiness i see without deinterlacing remains... Hmm...

Seems DOUBLE is the way to go or deinterlacing doesnt really make the image look better. Then I could just skip deinterlacing and make sure ppl use a player with deinterlace filter.

Then there is Double (adaptation)... I wish i understod what adaption does :)

Edit:
On this site (http://www.mvrip.com/part06.htm) they show the deinterlace method I have used. I use 2-pass VBR mode for the encoding though.

NEVERLIFT
Dec 6, 2002, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Bengan
Intresting stuff this Interlacing ;)

I read the guides at doom9 but they seem to be targeted at NTSC and TMPGenc's IVTC filter, not deinterlace filter that i use for PAL.

At this page (http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78320) they discuss deinterlacing abit and DigitalOv says this:
I tried opening a vid in TEMPGenc and using the preview in deinterlace filter to see the effect. If I set it to DOUBLE the image gets ghosting during movement but it also helps getting rid of the blockiness. If I set it to EVEN (adaptive) it does look sharper however the blockiness i see without deinterlacing remains... Hmm...

Seems DOUBLE is the way to go or deinterlacing doesnt really make the image look better. Then I could just skip deinterlacing and make sure ppl use a player with deinterlace filter.

Then there is Double (adaptation)... I wish i understod what adaption does :)

Edit:
On this site (http://www.mvrip.com/part06.htm) they show the deinterlace method I have used. I use 2-pass VBR mode for the encoding though.



Have you checked out Gunnar Thalin's site?
http://home.bip.net/gunnart/video/

Maybe you can use the filter he recommends...
Deinterlace - PAL movie
http://home.bip.net/gunnart/video/DeinterlacePALMovie.zip


Deinterlace - PAL movie
In PAL, two kinds of video exist:
50fps video with half vertical resolution and
25fps video with full vertical resolution
Both of these are usually captured as 25fps full resolution video which means that for 50fps video, each frame will consist of two subframes, or "fields". When these fields are merged into the full frame, interlace lines appear where the fields differ (usually due to motion). For this kind of video you should NOT use this deinterlacer. You need to use a "real" deinterlacer such as the area based deinterlacer below. You can also split the frames into their subframes and double the frame rate in which case you won't need to do any deinterlacing at all. But I recommend that you use my field shift filter below if you do this.
If, on the other hand, you have captured video with real 25fps (such as most PAL movies), there should be no interlace lines, since the fields belong to the same frame. However, sometimes the capture card gets it wrong and merges fields that should belong to different frames. This can easily be corrected by delaying all frames by one field which is exactly what the PAL movie deinterlacer does. This reconstruction is completely non-destructive. You should, however, always make sure your codec compresses the fields individually if you have this problem. Because interlace lines don't compress very well. MJPEG codecs usually have this option.
This filter needs to be first in the filter chain and before any clipping.

Settings
Swap fields: Sometimes the fields of a frame are in wrong order. Check this to fix that.






Note: To avoid confusion I think I should tell you that since I made this filter Donald Graft has added PAL deinterlacing to his smart deinterlacer too. It's called "phase shift by one field" and does everything my PAL deinterlacer does and a little more, so you might as well use that one instead since it's included with VirtualDub. But I'll keep this filter here anyway

forgiven
Dec 11, 2002, 04:10 PM
Hey guys...don't mean to get too far OT but, I have an 8500DV right now and am pretty disappointed on TV tuner capability. The picture is OK but not as good as TV. Is the 128 MB card and the 9700 AIW's going to produce the same Tv display on a monitor or will the 9700 look just like my TV? I will pop for the 9700 if the TV in is that much better...ie same as watching my regular TV or if the 128 8500 is the same video in wise in respect to TV I will save a couple of hundies...Help me please.

NEVERLIFT
Dec 11, 2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by forgiven
Hey guys...don't mean to get too far OT but, I have an 8500DV right now and am pretty disappointed on TV tuner capability. The picture is OK but not as good as TV. Is the 128 MB card and the 9700 AIW's going to produce the same Tv display on a monitor or will the 9700 look just like my TV? I will pop for the 9700 if the TV in is that much better...ie same as watching my regular TV or if the 128 8500 is the same video in wise in respect to TV I will save a couple of hundies...Help me please.


Get the MMC registry tool and try it.
I can make some nice captures using the VCD and SVCD profile now thanks to it. The VCD really craps out during fast motion scenes though, but thats do to the low bitrate VCD uses.

forgiven
Dec 11, 2002, 09:53 PM
I guess I am more concerned with watching TV on my monitor. I have a smallish office type area with some chairs and a desk and I don't want a TV and a monitor. When I watch TV on a 21" monitor I want it to look like my 20" TV I have in the other room...is there a way to do this with any of the AIW cards? Otherwise I will get a 9700 regular and be done with it.

Thanks

NEVERLIFT
Dec 11, 2002, 10:16 PM
I dont have any problems watching TV on my monitor and I dont recall anyone else on these forums having a problem with this.

Static and noise will show up on a monitor better, where as on a TV you would not be able to notice it.
But thats because TV's are alot different from monitors ;)